Making Room by Gather
Hospitality. What do you think of when you hear that word?
For some it's old school 'stuffy' entertaining for others it's something to do with the hotel industry. One thing is for sure, as a culture we're not talking about it much.
Food * Design * Relationships have seemed to have taken a back seat to what our culture focuses on and values yet...we find ourselves in the midst of a loneliness epidemic. Something has to change, it's time to get back to our tables, and we're making room for it!
Making Room by Gather invites you into a new conversation on everyday hospitality. One that rewrites the way we approach opening your doors and filling your tables. Shifting the narrative from 'how does this make me look' to 'how does this make you feel' these buildable conversations aspire to inspire connection through everyday gathering.
Kayty's chic and a little quirky interview style will make you feel like you're sitting with a friend talking about how to grow in confidence as an everyday host. You can expect conversations from navigating challenging relationship dynamics to foundational cooking techniques and everything in between.
Whether you are a seasoned host or looking to develop new friendships and grow in your skills for the first time, there is a seat at the table. Join us weekly for new conversations with expert guests and with Kayty in her beloved Date with Kayt episodes. Continue the conversation @gatheritentionalliving
Making Room by Gather
Embracing Sobriety and Navigating Perfectionism w/ Chris Janssen
World-renowned performance coach and best-selling author Chris Janssen joins us to uncover the often hidden struggles of high-achievers and perfectionists. Sharing her journey of sobriety during the challenging holiday season, Chris opens up about the themes of shame, grace, and rewriting personal narratives. Our conversation offers tools and strategies for managing performance pressure and avoiding self-sabotage, drawing from Chris’s wealth of experience training with Tony Robbins and working with athletes and entrepreneurs.
Mentorship takes center stage as we explore the dual role of being both a mentor and a mentee. We discuss the value of shared experiences and community support, especially in contexts like motherhood and sobriety. Challenging popular misconceptions about addiction, we highlight how it can affect anyone, shedding light on the deeper struggles that alcohol use can mask. Through our personal stories, you’ll find inspiration and guidance on navigating these complex issues, reinforcing the importance of community in recovery and personal growth.
Finally, we dive into the transformative power of grace and self-worth. By addressing the pervasive issue of shame, we reveal practical methods for reframing negative narratives and fostering a healthier self-image. Chris and I share insights from our personal journeys and professional experiences, encouraging listeners to engage in the necessary heart work for richer, more meaningful connections and relationships. Whether you're seeking sobriety or personal growth, this episode offers a beacon of hope and a roadmap to a more joyful life.
Buy your copy of Grace Yourself HERE before February 17
and HERE after February 1
Follow Chris on her website and instagram @Chris3Janssen
This Episode is Sponsored By:
Feast & Fettle get $25 off your first week of hand crafted, flavor packed meals delivered straight to your door so you can soak up the season with code GATHER25 at checkout
Watch our Youtube episodes here!
Hey guys, welcome back to Making Room. I'm so glad you're here. You will see me sipping on my Christmas mug and cozying up with my blanket because I've decided I'm fully embracing the season. It is a little bit chilly here in Connecticut and you guys know I fought hard. I fought the change of weather hard, but I'm excited. Little Wesley is 15 months this month. He's at a really fun phase phase pulling all the ornaments off the tree already. But something about this year just seems sweeter.
Speaker 1:Well, a few weeks ago we were introduced to a new friend. Her name is chris and there is so much about her background and her new book that was interesting to me and I know will be interesting to you guys as well, and we're going to be talking about her sobriety journey which especially, especially this time of year my goodness, the holidays, starting a new year is so relevant, whether it's personal to you or maybe someone in your life. But as I was reading her bio, there were other kind of key words that have been a huge part of my own life and my own journey that I want to dive into as well. Words like high-achieving, perfectionist or perfectionism we're going to dive into that. Words like shame and something I love about the word shame you guys will know what I mean not love about it, but can appreciate about it is so many of us don't even realize that it's something that we're dealing with or that we're carrying or that we're living under. And I had a mentor when we first moved to Thailand. I was mid-20s and she said hey Katie, I think you're living under shame, I think you're wrestling with shame, and that was the first time that had ever been said to me. That's the first time my eyes were ever opened to it and it started this whole journey for me that a lot of us, I don't think, have worked through yet, and so I'm excited to bring that conversation to you as well. Well, chris, if I don't say your last name right, I want you to correct me when we hop online together. But Chris Jansen yes, performance and mindset I love that niche.
Speaker 1:And a best-selling, award-winning author. She has worked with hundreds of sought-after athletes, creatives, soldiers, entrepreneurs and small businesses internationally, helping them to close the gap between where they are and where they want to be. I feel like all of our hands just shot up and they're like add me to your list. In addition to her academic achievements. Chris trained with and worked with Tony Robbins which, as an entrepreneur, I'm kind of like fangirling over a little bit and his team of results coaches at the number one personal development and peak performing strategy company in the world. As a board-certified coach with a Master's in Counseling Psychology and over 25 years of experience, chris excels in helping high-achieving perfectionists navigate performance pressure, overcome self-sabotage and rewrite narratives. Through her successful and sustainable living, all-in methodsients learn to attach meaning to life events and circumstances beyond their control. A California narrative. Chris and her husband, scott, have been married for nearly 30 years. Together they raised 3 children, now thriving young adults. Chris and Scott split their time between Los Angeles and Colorado. They love to ski golf, be with their horses and adventure outside.
Speaker 1:I am excited to dive in, but before we do, guys, this time of year is so full, it is so busy. No matter how much you try to create some kind of routine and rhythm and slow down, it usually does. Christmas seems like it's coming faster. Don't try to do it all. Get the, get the break when you can, accept the help when you can, and Feast and Fettle wants to help you. Do just that. You guys know me, I don't compromise when it comes to food. I want good food every chance that I could get, and it is basically private, chef-prepared food delivered straight to your door. Nothing is frozen, no weird textures. You're not opening packages and cooking, you are literally just heating and eating, from breakfast to snacks for your family, lunches for your kids, dinner for you and your guests. All high quality ingredients, high quality flavors, delivered straight to your door. Or if you live in the Northeast and you want to take advantage of Feast and Fettle, head on over to their website, feastandfettlecom, with code gather25 for $25 off your first week.
Speaker 1:Hi, I'm Katie, a hospitality educator and the host of Making Room by Gather podcast. I am set to see our communities get back to the table through hospitality, but it wasn't always this way. My husband and I moved to Thailand and through it I experienced some loneliness and with it I was given a choice to sit back and accept it or to do something about it. And for me, that meant two things that I needed the healing to learn how to accept an invitation and the confidence to know how to extend one. Through this process, I developed some of the richest and deepest relationships of my life.
Speaker 1:Through Making Room by Gather, you will hear conversations from myself and experts in the areas of food, design and relationships. You see there are countless things trying to keep us from the table. But can I tell you something? Take a seat because you are ready, you are capable, you are a good host, okay, okay, so glad to be here. We were just talking about how you're in California. I wish I was in California. You said it was cold, which made me feel a little bit better.
Speaker 2:It's cold in the morning. It's already warming up, though I hate to tell you looking out the window at a palm tree in the sun.
Speaker 1:There is this new airline near us that started launching these insanely affordable flights to Florida and I told my husband I was like I think I'm just going to take Wesley and go sometimes not forever, but for some breaks but so excited to be here with you, chris, as we chat today. We're pulling from some different areas of your career and your background. I'm excited to kind of cover the full scope, the full range. But I want to start start asking you about this. So you work with some incredible leaders as a results coach. We talked about it. It's a life coach is what you would call yourself, but also a results coach. I kind of like that. I like that a little better, honestly. But what was your experience with leaders growing up? Because I'm sure there was something that led you to work specifically in this area.
Speaker 2:That's a great question. I don't know if I've ever had that question. First of all, thank you for having me. It's super great to be here with you. Yeah, my experience with leaders growing up, I had a lot of really good leaders around me. Yeah, I had my mom and my dad as first right and then, uh, I had the opportunity to grow up in wonderful communities. I grew up in a non-denominational church community and had those you know the, the youth group I had. I had a very good experience with the authority figures and leaders.
Speaker 2:In my life I've always sought out mentors, as since I was probably 14. I remember going. I went to the same summer camp every summer and I sought out, you know my camp counselor, sought out you know my camp counselor. She was a woman older than me and from the time I was 14 on, I've I've always valued mentors. So, and then when I got older, I really valued, because a mentor told me to always have a mentor and always have a mentee at least one. So I think that is what it's been great advice in my life. So I always have at least one. Right now I probably have three solid, just mentors I check in with that are women older than me, more experienced than me, that I check in with in different parts of my life every week, and I have mentees as well.
Speaker 1:So we've talked a little bit about having mentors in some of the past episodes, but you're the first to bring up also having a mentee, and so tell me more about that, like what's the value in that for you? Well, the value is or you don't have to take it that way, whatever direction like or why you would recommend it.
Speaker 2:Yeah, it's well humility. For one, I think it really it. It keeps me grounded and humble because I realized it's not about I don't have perfect advice. I mean, I am a life coach, but I'm a life coach because of the things I've struggled with in my life and I feel like I am an expert at serving the person I once was. I'm not an expert at not doing that right. I'm not an expert at serving someone that is in an area that I haven't traveled.
Speaker 2:So I think having mentees is it really humbles you and lets you see, you know the best way to be of service to people is to share stories and listen and love and show grace and be unconditional and to not. As coaches, we're trained to not tell, we ask, we don't give advice, we ask questions and we tap into the client's resourcefulness and creativity. So that's what I do with my mentees. It's really about bringing their light, shining their light, reminding them of the strengths they might not be aware of, and it's definitely not about telling or giving advice. So that having mentees in my life is a great reminder of that that I don't. I don't know much. All I know is how to serve the person I once was.
Speaker 1:I was just going to ask you to bring that phrase back up, because I've never heard it phrased that way. That is so profound. So say that one more time, serving the person you once were Well, I'm, I'm going to give credit to my good friend, rory Vaden.
Speaker 2:So he's the co-founder he and his wife of a group I'm part of called Brand Builders Group. So I don't want to take credit, but that's his saying that we are, and he helps thousands of entrepreneurs and leaders that we are most powerfully positioned to serve the person we once were.
Speaker 1:So you know what's so funny? So I have a I'm part of like a small group, like a women's Bible study type thing, and there's women from all walks of life. Okay, so there's this girl that started asking me questions and I kept saying like, oh well, I don't know everything, but like here's my answer, and she kind of stopped me in my tracks. She was like Katie, you have six years of experience more than I do, right? And I think we forget that, like even though we might not be fully healed or fully to the point in business that we want to be at or whatever, we have experience that other people don't have that we're in, kind of like at the beginning we were like what am I trying to say? Do you know what I'm trying to say? I, I do Right.
Speaker 2:We, um, we're older than somebody, we've traveled the road, especially as mothers, right Like I remember reaching out to when you have the, the phase where they're just spitting up on you and they're crying and then they're teething and you can't figure anything out and it's just very alarming If you don't, if you're not in a community of other people, that that's happening to you're going to think you're all alone. So it's very reassuring to know you're not alone and also to talk to those older mothers who already went through it mostly, so they can tell you this is normal, you're not going to die. You will make it to the other end of this, right we, we? I think life is meant to be lived in community and there's always something to share that people that went ahead of us.
Speaker 1:Yes, your experience matters at every point in the journey. I think that's what I'm kind of getting at right, like you. I mean, some people are in chapter 10, some people are chapter one. You don't have to wait until you're at the end of the book, kind of thing to start start sharing. You don't have to be 90. You could share with you know, whatever you've lived. So we're going to talk a lot about that today. I think that's so good. So. So we're going to talk a lot about that today. I think that's so good. So I wasn't sure what to expect when I was asking you about your experience with leaders. I didn't know if maybe a series of bad leaders led you wanted to continue that trend. But how about your experience with alcohol in your family, in your community? Because we're going to be talking about sobriety and alcohol a little bit today too.
Speaker 2:Yeah, I think that's a really important point. This is a great time to bring up that point that you don't have to have had a troubled childhood or terrible authority figures in your life to fall into an addiction, and so you can look like me. You can be a mom with great kids. You can look great on the outside. I mean, I am I talk about this in my books and I think we're going to talk about this but I, I grew up a perfectionistic kid. I, I'm like a high functioning, high achieving person that looks good from the outside. I have it all together. So, by all you know, yeah, looking at me from the outside, you would believe that Um, and so I think that's really important that addiction, whether it's alcohol or anything else, it doesn't care. It doesn't care where you came from, it doesn't care, of course. Of course, our environment plays into all kinds of addiction and other things in our life. It just doesn't have to. So for me, I grew up in a this is fun.
Speaker 2:I grew up in a family of teetotalers. They didn't drink. My parents didn't drink and they were part of a denomination that was pretty rigid no dancing, no drinking. My parents and my relatives were not, though they were loving, not rigid, not legalistic people. In fact, when I was eight years old we left that denomination and went to a non-denominational church, but I just think alcohol was never part of their story. Because of that, and socioeconomically people just didn't have time or funds for it. And then so none. I didn't know anyone who identified as an alcoholic in my whole life, like I did not have aunts, uncles, cousins, you know. If they were, I didn't know about it. My parents didn't drink.
Speaker 2:Um, you know, there was a tiny bit of that that when I got into my high school just a very typical public high school in my town and people's parents did drink and then the friends would drink at parties or whatever. I think there was a little bit that was alarming for me, like, oh my gosh, am I going to hell? That type of thing. But I would not say, I would never say that played into my addiction. I just think that I got caught in an addictive snare. Alcohol is a poison, it's. I'm not anti-alcohol, but for some people it's not okay and for me I'm the type of person that's not okay it's very addictive, it's. It's an addictive substance. So it alcohol, not other people, not me, not my environment is the problem. Wow, I believe.
Speaker 1:I'm really curious.
Speaker 1:So my sisters and I we have a father who's an alcoholic and a drug addict and he's not currently in our life just because life is safer and healthier that way and I think I've shared a little bit of that story with our listeners safer and healthier that way, and I think I've shared a little bits of that story with our listeners.
Speaker 1:But I remember when we were approaching 21, we were scared to death of alcohol and I think what we realized is we had kind of like addictive personality traits in other ways whether I don't I have to study this a little bit more whether it was learned like learned behavior or just in our DNA and so we kind of introduced I think I drank alcohol last because I was so scared of its effects on me. But I remember as a kid I had other addictive personality traits, whether it was soda or candy and I had to have it, or like there were withdrawals when I didn't have it. And I know that sounds so silly, but if you have addictive personality traits I guess you'll know exactly what I'm talking about. Did you experience that as a kid? Like did you see early signs of it wasn't alcohol, but it was something else, definitely.
Speaker 2:Yes, I was addicted to exercise and running. I had an eating disorder, and that's definitely. I think that's true. I see it over and over again. If you go into any recovery meeting, you're going to hear that story, the one you just told, over and over again. Some of us were just born, whether, no matter what our environmental circumstances are some of us are predisposed to just not be able to process or handle certain things.
Speaker 2:You know and and it also there are I go in the book. In my book, grace Yourself, I do start off in like chapter two saying here are some addiction accompaniers that I've noticed over time and just being in recovery meetings and having so many friends in recovery for the past 18 years, there's a lot of things that I've noticed where I can kind of see a kid and know if that kid might have trouble with substances when they're older, right, because of some of these traits. So that's what your story is very typical. It's just part of being human. Some of us are like that and you need to be careful with substances or or screens or whatever it is. We just need to take extra precautions or screens or whatever it is.
Speaker 1:We just need to take extra precautions. Yeah, that's so, that's a healthy, healthy mirror for a lot of us, right? And I'm so thankful for a husband who doesn't have that tendency at all to be able to say, like Kate, I see it, I see it rearing its head with this again and yeah, it's, it's good, it's a good conversation to bring ourselves back to. Well, we're going to jump to this, back to this, in a few minutes. So the area of your bio that I love they've referenced it a few times already is that you help high achieving perfectionists navigate performance pressure.
Speaker 1:Now, here's the deal. We have a lot of listeners that are entrepreneurs, slash creatives. We have a lot of listeners that are parents. We also have just the everyday host who is trying to embrace hospitality but is told by culture don't start until it's perfect, right? So we have perfectionism in a few different ways here. Right, I know that the Enneagram is viewed differently by different people, but it's been a helpful tool for me. I'm a three, so I'm an achiever, I'm a one or a hundred. I tend to live that way, and so I'm sure there's a lot of us that are approaching perfectionism in different ways here For the people listening that are like, wow, I've never heard anyone that works with people like me. This is me. Our hands are going up. What are some of the things that you I mean you could really take this any direction, chris, because you work with people in this position a lot what do you wish they knew? What are helpful tools that you're like I wish culture was saying, I guess tell us what you think is valuable.
Speaker 2:Yeah, I'll share some tools too. Um, and, and I and if you know, people don't get this in the podcast the, the tools are in both my books. So I like the books are very interactive. They give a tool and then there's places to fill in the blanks. Um, so I would say I would first define to me there's a difference between perfectionism and a high growth.
Speaker 2:Individual, like a high achiever and I think an achiever will be find a lot of fuel and energy toward their goal. They will do what it takes to reach that goal. I'm an achiever where you know we're in fast forward a lot of the time and that's okay. We, we get a lot of stuff done. We want to be careful with perfectionism because perfectionism is different.
Speaker 2:It can can invite shame, it can invite guilt, unwanted guilt. Some guilt can be helpful, like some guilt can be leading us, like, oh, I shouldn't have done that, let's lead it. There's also a guilt assessment in the book. But what we want to be careful of is shame. Like guilt is maybe I need to change direction. Shame is I'm a bad person, and that just doesn't ever have a place in anybody's lives.
Speaker 2:So, in short, an achiever will do what it takes to reach the goal. A perfectionist will, if they don't reach the goal or if it's not going the way they think it should, it's trash. They'll, literally. I have one kid that is a perfectionist and and a highly, highly creative artist, and as a very, very young child he would draw, and if it wasn't perfect it was crumpled up and thrown in the trash. That's perfectionism. And so if we carry that into adulthood he's did not carry that into adulthood, but if we do, we run into all kinds of snares and when we can't handle the pressure, that can lead to addiction. Right, because we ha, we are human and we have to find a coping mechanism. And so when we find a soother, it becomes a ritualistic soother, and if that's a harmful thing, like a harmful substance, that ritualistic soother will turn into an addiction, a harmful addiction that ritualistic soother will turn into an addiction, a harmful addiction.
Speaker 1:I love powerful, helpful phrases, and that is a new one to me a ritualistic soother, that's so I mean that's. You're describing addiction with that.
Speaker 2:I mean in my view. Yes, that's how I describe it in my book. You know it's a wide topic. Everybody's going to come with their research and all their things. Like I said, I don't know if we were recording when I said to you at the beginning, so I'll say it for the listeners but I'm not an addiction expert and I'm not a sobriety coach. I'm a life coach and I have a lot of great coaching tools. But I am an expert at serving the person. I once was. So I'm an expert at sharing my own story, and I was addicted to alcohol and now I'm not, and so I share that in the latest book. So mine is not based on a ton of research. It's based on, you know, my story in the book is based on my story, what I've learned in being in recovery over the last 18 years and from hearing thousands of other people's stories. Yeah, Wow.
Speaker 1:Well, I have a few thoughts here. But when my husband and I first got married, I was starting kind of like a. It's a very long story. I'm happy to answer any questions anyone has, but here's just like a little snippet of it. So I was starting this like at-home bakery and I was baking cakes. I was a new baker, had never been formally taught and I had this view that I had to achieve this Pinterest picture the first time. I baked Right, and I always. So I've come a long way. I've had. I have hundreds of cakes in my toolbox now.
Speaker 1:So, when people see me now they're like oh my gosh, these cakes are incredible. And I'm like you have no idea what would happen was all of these cakes, as I was learning, didn't come up perfect, straight in the trash, chris. So, just like your son, that was the artist. I couldn't even look at it, I couldn't have evidence of it, I didn't want to take pictures. I have very few pictures of the failed cakes, so I didn't want any evidence that they existed. And my poor husband would say Kate, there's, it's still flour, sugar and butter. Like I still want to eat it. Can you at least put it in the freezer? And I'm like no, as no place here. So I get it, I do get it, and I think that that breakdown of achievers and perfectionists helps me, helps me to identify, I guess myself, the different phases. I think it will help a lot of us actually.
Speaker 2:Yeah, yeah, Well. And then you asked about tools. I kind of skipped over that part, but you brought up such a good, that's such a great example. Like if I were coaching that old version of you that was throwing away the cakes, it probably would have been delicious. The exercise I use is so simple. It's just so.
Speaker 2:We create standards that are too high as perfectionists, Right, and that's where we get pressure. So what I have clients do is look at the rules they make and sometimes these are subconscious. We don't know they're happening. The rules we create that we need to put in place to make that standard happen or that Right. So, like in your case, I would have how this you know, as an example. I would say um, so your, your standard was a certain cake right now. That's not your husband's standard, that's not my standard and that was your standard.
Speaker 2:So if you were my client back then, I would have said tell me, you know, how will you know when you've baked that cake? So we're going to get real specific about what that perfect cake looks like. And then we're going to go through and I'm really big into having everything written with pencil and paper because it gets it into our physiology and and brain while we're writing. But I would have had you write down the rules you had for creating that perfect cake, what has to happen for this cake to be perfect, and you might've told me I mean what. What would you have said, Like, what were name one or two rules? You would have had.
Speaker 1:This sounds so silly to non-bakers. No air bubbles in the frosting.
Speaker 2:Okay. So that's a great example. So then I'd have you write down no air bubbles in the frosting and then I would Um no, no, it's not Okay. So, since it's not, we're going to toss that and we're going to. Then we're going to go through a series of exercises to help you like a muscle at the gym. We have to form a new narrative to get rid of that.
Speaker 2:But basically you're only going to keep the things that are within your control, because you set rules for your goal that are outside of your control, like a big one that people said especially, I bet, in hospitality is. You know they want to have a party, but maybe one of the rules for a successful party is everybody has to have fun. Well, you have no control over that. We don't control other people, so we have to ditch that one too. So we need to keep our rules only within what's in our control and keep them realistic, and you know that we go through all of that. So that's my greatest tool for helping people navigate performance pressure. A lot of this stuff just has got to be ditched.
Speaker 2:And then I have a great exercise that is in both books. It's just how to when you just how to know cause. I think feelings are action signals. So when you feel a way you don't want to feel like maybe it's pressure, or maybe you feel like a failure, or you feel like you're about to self-sabotage, you feel like your cake's a failure, that's a that's not wrong, it's just an action signal. So then we're going to find out, we're going to unpack that and find out where that, what, where'd that come from? It came from a narrative going through your head, and then we're going to fact check it. Is that true? No, is it within my control? No.
Speaker 1:And so then we're going to flip it and reframe it to something better it is so helpful to hear that there are like rules, like subconscious rules that we set, the only, as you were saying that I went through a season of counseling when we were in Thailand. It was mandated counseling and I'm so thankful it was the best thing that ever happened in my life. It's kind of like tail end healing from eating disorder phase, and she heard me say something about like a shirt that I was wearing or something, and she mirrored back to me that I had dress code rules for myself that I didn't even know I had, Right, and so I was like man and just hearing them, she fished them out of my mouth. So it was man, she was good, but I, when you said that, I'm like, oh my gosh, there are rules that I have in my own life that I didn't even realize that I set.
Speaker 1:And listeners I mean it's probably the first time listeners are hearing that there are hospitality rules and relationship rules and food rules, right, I mean food rules is a huge one, probably with hostesses, Like. I hear people say like, well, I can't serve frozen food and I'm like, well, why not? But it's kind of like a rule that we've bought into. Oof man, Chris, this is good, kind of like a rule that we've bought into Oof man. Chris, this is good and these are tell me what book this is?
Speaker 2:This lab. The rules are in. Standards are in my latest book. This is the advanced. Yeah, it's the new one coming out February 18th, but you can pre-order it now. Grace yourself how to show up for theber Life you Want.
Speaker 1:Okay, I was hoping it was this one and not your first one, because we got to plug this one.
Speaker 2:It's not all about. I mean, it's about it explains these types of things, and the way I do that is sharing my story with sobriety. So in that sense, it's a book on sobriety, but it's also a book on so much more.
Speaker 1:Man so good. I've heard people over the years say like even if you don't struggle with alcohol, like everyone could benefit from things like AA, the 12 steps are wonderful. Yes, is that I mean? I know we're not talking about that today, but I feel like there are there's like levels of freedom that people don't tap into until it's things are almost out of control. But it's like, man, there's so much Right we could benefit from.
Speaker 2:Yeah, there are hundreds of us, millions probably in recovery that just feel so grateful. You know that we are there because we get to work on all these things.
Speaker 1:So good man, so good. Well, let's keep going with this. So, um, you actually just answered a question I had about hospitality, but your relationship with alcohol, I think, is one that is more common than many of us realize. Um, partially because a lot of people walking through it are silent about the journey. I think that culture says it's shameful, there's no place for it to talk about when you feel like you're struggling with it. It's also, I don't know, it's an uncomfortable topic to have with family and friends. We live in an alcohol-saturated culture right now. Family and friends, we live in an alcohol saturated culture right now. But tell us, I guess, what led you to lead this conversation and to kind of grab a hold of your own freedom.
Speaker 2:Yeah, I well, I was sober. I got sober when the kids were little, and this was in 2007. And back then there was we didn't have mocktails and people going alcohol free for health choices. It was really, and, like I explained, I didn't grow up around, um, people that had drinking problems, um, drinking problems Um, and so that I knew of, and so it was really, um, you're either an alcoholic or you're not. You're a normal drinker or you're. This was, you know, in 2007. So I went to.
Speaker 2:I knew in my gut I could not drink alcohol. That it was, even though it hadn't really manifested to everybody else yet, because I still had people telling me oh honey, you don't have a problem with that. I really did them, but my husband and I were the only ones that kind of noticed it, because I was a housewife at home with small babies and just having too much to drink while I was cooking, and it was quiet. It was quietly just killing my soul and about to kill me physically, and so I really didn't know where to go. So I went to a sober community that I looked up online one night and I was scared to death. It was an all women's group and I went the next day and it changed my life because a woman in the group said you know, again I'd never met other people with the same problem as I was experiencing the same struggle, and this woman said she knew I was brand new. She said it's not your fault, it's like an allergy. You have a condition, there's a solution, stay here, we're going to help you. And that is why belief is such a big part of my writing. I have an exercise in both books about belief, because my belief about myself up to that point when that woman said that was the fact, was I'm addicted to alcohol. I had this story attached to that fact that I'm a monster because I can't stop. And it was a really ridiculous narrative because I was successful in all other areas of my life except this one. I'm a very disciplined person, I have a lot of willpower, but with this I couldn't get it under control because it's a highly addictive substance. I didn't know all that then. I thought I was the problem. So when she said that, my belief switched from you know, the fact was still the same I'm addicted, but the belief switched from I'm a monster to I'm just an addicted woman deserving of community and recovery. I'm just an addicted woman deserving of community and recovery, and so I was able to stay sober. I stayed in that community and I was sober just short of 14 years.
Speaker 2:And then, in 2020, we moved, and this whole story is in my book, so I'll just give you the nutshell. But we moved to my book. So I'll just give you the nutshell. But we moved to. I'd never left California. We moved out of state.
Speaker 2:Um, I was a brand new empty nester. I don't think I processed that. I just kind of said this new adventure, let's, you know, take up golf and let's do these things. I didn't really. Bottom line is I decided I didn't think I was an alcoholic. I didn't think I was.
Speaker 2:I forgot the reasons I stopped drinking in the first place and I decided to invite it back into my life. I had this false belief that I don't think I ever had a problem. I think the reason I couldn't drink was all these other things in my life, all these other pressures, and the second I invited it back. I knew, without a doubt nope, it was the alcohol. I can't process it and you know, I have changed, I have evolved, but alcohol has not, and so when that happens.
Speaker 2:It is because addiction is such a beast. It was so difficult for me to get sober a second time. It was like there's a saying we have in recovery that it's easier to stay sober than to get sober, and that's very true. So it was. It was a battle trying to get my sobriety back. So I wrote this book to kind of just document what that was like and what I learned. And I wouldn't have learned the. I mean I'm glad it worked out and I'm here and I'm sober again, but I could have died. You know I'm I'm just happy I'm back. But I wrote it all down so that it wouldn't be wasted and hopefully somebody else doesn't have to do the same field trip I went on, doesn't have to do the same field trip I went on.
Speaker 1:Well, you talk about how community was a lifeline. I think you use the term in EpiPen, right? Is that what you refer to them as?
Speaker 2:I did in the book. I've never said that, other than what I read nut allergies and um. You know as young children that I carried an EpiPen and so it's in. An EpiPen buys you time until you get it doesn't save your life. It buys you 20 minutes of time until you get to the ER, the ambulance comes. So I just thought that was a good analogy that it addiction can be like an allergy and a community can be like an EpiPen, where it's it's not going to save your life.
Speaker 2:There's a lot of other things that are at play, but it it is, it will. It will save your life one day at a time. Right, it's, it is one of the key. I just don't think people can get sober with or be. I don't think people can like me can be sober without community. I think there are a lot of people not like me who are sober for health reasons and they're alcohol free for wellness, and that's so wonderful. I'm so happy the world is going that direction. I don't I'm not suggesting they all need a community, but if someone struggled with addiction, I think community is key.
Speaker 1:Yeah, so I want to expand on this just a little bit. So we have listeners that maybe are kind of like in a similar situation as you like a similar lifestyle and recovery. We also have people that are like man. I don't struggle with alcohol, but I have people in my life that do. How would you say that we can best be community to support people in our life that are sober?
Speaker 2:sober, curious Like how can we be that EpiPen to them? That's a really good, that's a very compassionate question. Yeah, my good friends will ask me that no, I don't drink. Do you care if I drink? Is it okay if we serve drink? Those are polite questions. If you're a host, I think that's a really polite, hospitable question. My answer is always I don't care at all, it doesn't bother me at all. I my sobriety. I'm not tempted at all by other people drinking, and a lot of people are like me Because if I I were, I couldn't. I mean, if I didn't have my recovery figured out and being taken care of in in a sober community, I wouldn't be able to go out in the world because it's everywhere. So I think that's a polite question, though, and I'll just let people know I don't care at all. I do have things. Like my husband knows, I don't serve alcohol. That's just my thing. I'm not making this suggestion for other people, but I just know things that I've I've put in place that.
Speaker 2:I just are my little um, tips and and routine. I don't buy alcohol at the grocery store, I don't serve it and no one notices those things. Right, If we're hosting, my husband buys the alcohol, he serves the alcohol, he opens the wine, so, and nobody else ever notices those things.
Speaker 1:So I think it's important to notice too that there is kind of like a range, right, like I've only had friends over the years that are like I can't smell it, cause like the smell depending on what stage you're at, right, and so I think it is good to ask those questions, like you're saying, because, um and and to be aware, as a host, that the answers might vary based on where you are on the recovery journey, right.
Speaker 2:That's very smart. Be aware that they'll, they and and don't cause anybody else to stumble right. It's like, yeah, my husband, yeah, if we're going to be kissing or whatever he won't have alcohol right, he's very polite about it.
Speaker 1:Yeah, that's good, just aware, compassionate. Yeah, I mean it's a hard thing because, you know, I do love a glass of wine at a holiday party, but I'm very aware, like my and I'm also Italian and I cook with a lot of wine. I cook with white wines, I cook with Marsala, all those things. And we have a new member of our family that has been sober for a long time and I was like, oh, wow, I, I just like. I recently was just reminded, like, oh, I should ask if he's okay that I cook with wine. And I've had different answers to that question over the years. Like for him he's kind of said a similar thing to you, like that that doesn't affect me, like that's fine when it's in the chicken. But I have had people, um, friends, say, oh, thank you for asking, like, can you use something else?
Speaker 2:So yeah, I. I would say to hosts anyone hosting a party, go ahead and ask. We appreciate it.
Speaker 1:Yeah, Because I don't like.
Speaker 2:I don't have desserts that aren't that the alcohol is not cooked off. That's great. It's like a liqueur, a chocolate with liqueur I stay away from. But I don't mind if it's in a lot of sauces and it cooks off. So same thing with a lot of people are okay drinking in a beers or in a things, I'm okay having mocktails, but some people in sobriety, that's a big no-no because they feel like it triggers their, their brain somehow. So it's, it is different for everybody, which is good for hosts to know.
Speaker 1:How about celebrating and I'm probably going to get the terminology wrong, so please correct me, but like the, you're like sober, it's not birthday.
Speaker 2:Yeah, sometimes I call them sober versaries or you call them birthdays though Is that?
Speaker 1:is that something that's meaningful to you? And maybe this varies.
Speaker 2:It's very meaningful, and I do write about this too. I it's. It's again. No, it's different for every person. So you guys just have to know what it is for you. For me, I love, I think celebration is very important and I do celebrate milestones. I get really excited about it, um. But when I was trying to get that second sobriety back, I made a point to not count days because it was tripping me up. That perfectionism kicked in. But see, not everybody has that old perfectionistic tendency that I struggled with as a young kid, so they might not have that problem. So you have to know yourself. I would say if it's moving you forward, do it, and if it's not, dump it. There's no formula, there's no right or wrong there. Yeah, whatever works.
Speaker 1:It's a good thing, just as community, to maybe bring up to a friend or a family member, maybe mark the day if you think of them saying it, and follow up a year later and write a card, send a text, I don't know, like there's so many ways to be intentional. I guess my last question is how about accountability? And I know that some people do accountability very well. Other people are still learning. But I mean, what role huh Do you like when people I don't know like what does accountability look like in community?
Speaker 2:Well, I have a sober mentor and she's my accountability and she's one of my mentors that's older and I don't want yeah, unless I've asked for it, I don't want it. I don't want somebody checking in with me. My husband doesn't check in with me because the truth is we're adults, we're going to do what we want, Right and so but. But I think it is important to ask somebody and to be intentional about having an accountability partner. Awesome, but everybody else does not.
Speaker 1:I'm so glad we talked about that, though, because so so many of these things it's just important to be intentional with and understand the roles of community and how to ask. It's good, it's really good. Thank you for being so vulnerable with all of that. Well, last but not least, we're going to talk about shame just for a bit, and we're going to end on the topic of hope. So, if anyone's like man, we're getting deep. We're going to end with hope. So this I'm going to quote you directly. So I think it's from your book, I think it's a quote that's pulled from there.
Speaker 1:So shame is a liar. Regardless of how high or low you set your standards and whether or not you reach them, you are worthy and loved and whole. You are a priceless treasure, whether you are addicted or sober, guilty or innocent, sick or healthy, stalled or growing. Oh my gosh, I'm going to get choked up. Seeking or knowing there is nothing you could do or think to negate your worth, and shame holds no power, right or authority in your life. I feel like so many of us find ourselves under a heavy blanket of shame, whether it's in the context of sobriety, whether it's another form of shame, and we don't even know that we are, or what shame is. I remember again the first time my mentor told me Katie, I think you're struggling with shame, and this started like a process for me. So I guess to start a process that was liberating, I will add. I guess my first question is how does someone know if they're wrestling with shame?
Speaker 2:The best way to know is to use your feelings as indicators. So if you're feeling a way you don't want to feel disempowered, sad, depressed, not good enough, unworthy, those are just some feelings. There's zillions of them. That's when you're going to, like I had mentioned the four F's Just use that feeling as an action signal. It's not wrong. None of our feelings are wrong. We do want to bring. Some of them are so deep down and subconscious that we want to start listening to these things rattling through the subconscious. So feelings are a great way to do that. You feel a way you don't want to feel great. Stop celebrate your awareness, then immediately ask find it. That's the second Like. I do feel it, find it, fact check it, frame it. So find it.
Speaker 2:It's probably, if you think about what just went through your head and it might be subconscious, it's probably a lousy thought or lousy question that's not serving you. So then you'll fact check that, right. And so you'll say so. Then you'll fact check that, right. And so you'll say is that true, right? So say the. The feeling of like shame is a feeling, and maybe the thing rattling through our head is why do I always do this? Why can't I get it right. Why is this happening to me? Those types of things never serve us, but we might not know that they're rattling through our head until we find them right. So those I call lousy questions, and when your brain asks a question like that, it can't answer it in a positive way. It will answer it with a lousy answer.
Speaker 2:So instead of answering the lousy question, we're going to reframe it to something that serves us, and a lot of my work with clients is coming up with mantras or affirmations or a new narrative even before we fully believe it. So we're going to say it. You know I am. You said something at the oh should have written it down, but you said a really good one in the beginning. Yeah, it's, I am. You know. Let's just say I am intentional, I am worthy, I am. Just start pouring out all the positive things and you might. It's okay. It took a long time to write that old, lousy story. So it will. It's like a muscle at the gym. It'll take time to condition the new story and we just have to keep saying it or writing whatever works for you. Put it on your wallpaper, you know, your screensaver, or your sticky notes or um, wherever, so that you are remembering these new narratives every day and then conditioning them.
Speaker 1:So good. I think that's such a good um Hmm, I always use the word. I always say this is such a good invitation, but it really is. It's a good invitation to be able to deal with shame. I think you know, I tell I speak to hosts a lot and in the context of hospitality, and I'll say a lot of us could be the next Martha Stewart. A lot of us are very skilled at food and design and all of these things, and we're like man. What is this missing key to connection, to relationship? And for a lot of us, it's the this heart work. And for me, for a lot of years, it was. I was living under this crushing blanket of shame and as you start to deal with that and find freedom, um, there is so much that opens up in life and in relationships and, um, it's, it's worth the work.
Speaker 2:It's worth it. Yeah, and I think so. The book is called Grace Yourself, and I think it's important because people have a different, a lot of people have a different definition of grace, and so I just don't think. I think grace has a lot to do with shame, because I don't think they coexist. And so one thing you did say at the beginning, that is in your intro, that I love you said accept an invitation and extend one. And to me that's I'm a person of faith, so to me grace is about God's grace and it's unmerited favor. And it's like that definition of shame you read is from my new book, and that's what I mean. It's this unmerited favor that, no matter what you're worthy, just because you were born, you know we're going to have a more fun life and a more productive life and a more joy-filled life and a more abundant life if we embrace these positive narratives. But whether or not we do that doesn't change our worth. Like I could still be in an active addiction and I might feel shameful about that, I'll definitely feel really bad, but the truth is, I believe that wouldn't change my worth, Wow. And so I think that, like you say, accept an invitation.
Speaker 2:We have been given an invitation of grace and all we have to do is accept it, but, as a person who used to be a perfectionist and who used it, got caught up in these ritualistic suitors and addiction. Control is a big part of that, because we're controlling. We're wanting to control all our outcomes, we're wanting to control the way we feel, our state right, and it is very difficult. As a young person, it was very difficult for me to accept grace, because I thought I needed to control my own worth. So I was like you can't tell me what I deserve and what I don't. I don't deserve this. I want to feel shameful. Well, that's not accepting grace, because grace is free and we get it no matter what. We do have to accept it, though, and then, like you said, we have to extend it.
Speaker 1:So so powerful. I feel like we can keep talking about this. I really could. I could dive deep, because this is like I love depth, and I think so many of us crave it and don't know how to put words to it. And you put words to it so well.
Speaker 1:But I was raised in the church a non-denominational church my whole life. So since I was four and moved to Thailand, lived on the missions field for a while, serving in a multicultural like, a lot of different religions, a lot of different nationalities, and I was babysitting this little girl. She had to be four or five at the time and her parents were away. It was the first time I watched a little kid this length of time and I think it was like 1030 in the morning. We were on a bike ride, driving past this kind of like a convenience store, like a 7-Eleven, and she said Katie, can I have? She was a little bit choked up, missing her parents, and she said Katie, can I have an ice cream? And I said, oh, I'm sorry, sweetheart, we can't, we have to have lunch first. And she said she looked me straight in the eyes, she like spoke to my soul and she said. She said, katie, can you just have some grace with me.
Speaker 1:And it was the first time I've heard grace talked about in that way and in a second I understood it. I was like, oh my gosh, of course. And then I was like how come this four-year-old understands grace more than I do? Isn't that funny? And obviously we're talking about it in a much deeper light as adults. But I was like that simple truth of like I know it's not an example of God's grace necessarily, but I was like sometimes we just need people to extend it. I don't know, show us. Yeah, I love that.
Speaker 2:I really love that because, yeah, if you have to have your lunch first, you're earning it right, you're earning the dessert, and yeah, I know.
Speaker 1:It's not necessarily an exact mirror, but it made me, it invited me to wrestle with grace for the first time, and I think that's really what it did for me, with grace for the first time, and I think that's really what it did for me. And and I was like also parenting note to teach my kids grace from a young age, cause those parents, man, they were onto something and that sweet little girl got an ice cream cone that day before lunch. Okay, well, we are. I guess I'll wrap this up, like, if anyone is like, wait, don't wrap up yet, we still got to keep talking. There's so much to dig into here. Go buy Chris's book. Um, if you're watching this on YouTube I think I'm posting the video. Um, grace yourself. Uh, you can pre-order the book. Uh, if you're listening before February, if you're listening after, you can go ahead and order it. Um, or, my goodness, people can work with you too, right, they can.
Speaker 2:Yeah, and, and a lot of this is in my um first book, living all in has great exercise. That's available now on Amazon. Grace yourself will be available where books are sold. People can work with me on my website. It's chrisjansencoachingcom, and so you can contact me there. You can read about my coaching and and all of that good stuff.
Speaker 1:So good, so so good. Well, let's wrap up with the same questions we ask all of our guests. Um the sun? If you're watching this video, the sun is like doing weird things with my screen. It's like a spotlight. But let's wrap up with the same three questions we ask each of our guests. So the first one is something you have eaten recently and loved.
Speaker 2:I well it's fall. I've been really into this vegan tomato basil soup, and I'm not vegan, but I don't love the taste of heavy cream, and so if somebody makes a tomato basil soup without heavy cream, it's just. I just love it. I love basil. I just had some last night at um of all places. We went to Disneyland yesterday, my husband and I, yeah and um. There was this good restaurant in California adventure park that served this vegan tomato basil soup. It was so good.
Speaker 1:I've heard him. I live so far from both of the Disney's that we don't have there a lot but, I've heard such good things about the food scene. Oh yeah, it's like wonderful good food. Yeah, and I'm, I'm gluten free, dairy free.
Speaker 2:So, but when you could eat at Disneyland, for sure, oh my gosh, I gotta go, I gotta go.
Speaker 1:That sounds amazing. I have to say this puts a little damper on it. When I was pregnant so I'm Italian, huge like red sauce tomato family you know, I could not. The one thing I couldn't have was red sauce or anything tomato based, and so I haven't ventured back, actually since Wesley's been born. But I could have some tomato soup today. I could stomach it. So I'm actually going to switch back to our old second question, and it's something that you have found to be beautiful lately.
Speaker 2:Oh, I mean, how long do you have? I mean, how long do you have I? Just I got to have. So I have three grown kids, and I say I have five kids because two of them are married, and so I got to have all five at my Thanksgiving table last week and it was so beautiful. I I feel like every year gets better because our relationships get deeper. And, um, you know, I talked about when we went around the table for what we're thankful for, I, the two that have their, their partners. I just said I'm so grateful that the whole family embraced my child right, that the whole, not just that they found their significant other, but that they're loved by that person's parents and family. That's always been really important to me for who my kids end up with, and that was that's just been a huge source of beauty right now and thankfulness in my life.
Speaker 1:Wow, that's a really great answer. And, last but not least, something you have discovered recently that you think everyone should know about an Amazon purchase, a Netflix show, a food, anything.
Speaker 2:So I love these I don't know how to pronounce it Ufos recovery sandals. I think it's O-O-F-O-S or O-F-O-O-S but it's Ufos and their recovery sandals. I wear mine inside the house and they're a little bit like. I think they're a little pricey but it will save on doctor bills because your back is going to feel great and brings me great joy. I just love putting them on and I just feel like I stand up straight.
Speaker 1:I'll tag them in the show notes. I'm kind of in that stage where I'd rather have fewer higher quality things than a closet full of like fast fashion. You know what I mean? I no, I'm with you. I'd rather a good pair of sandals that are going to last me five-ish years, you know then, yeah, that sounds great. Well, thank you so much for taking this time, for being so vulnerable. I've kind of learned through this conversation how much I have to learn about sobriety, really. I mean, it's so important for us to stay teachable, to have conversations, to ask questions, and thank you for sharing parts of your story and inviting us into all of that. I appreciate it. Oh, thanks, katie, I loved your questions. Thank you, oh sweet. Well, I'm so glad we're new friends and I'm sure this is not the last we're going to see you. So, um, thank you guys. So much for tuning in. Um, be sure to follow Chris on all of her social pages and, uh, purchase the book and we will see you next week.
Speaker 2:Oops, I love that picture of you. Is that your husband?