Making Room by Gather
Hospitality. What do you think of when you hear that word?
For some it's old school 'stuffy' entertaining for others it's something to do with the hotel industry. One thing is for sure, as a culture we're not talking about it much.
Food * Design * Relationships have seemed to have taken a back seat to what our culture focuses on and values yet...we find ourselves in the midst of a loneliness epidemic. Something has to change, it's time to get back to our tables, and we're making room for it!
Making Room by Gather invites you into a new conversation on everyday hospitality. One that rewrites the way we approach opening your doors and filling your tables. Shifting the narrative from 'how does this make me look' to 'how does this make you feel' these buildable conversations aspire to inspire connection through everyday gathering.
Kayty's chic and a little quirky interview style will make you feel like you're sitting with a friend talking about how to grow in confidence as an everyday host. You can expect conversations from navigating challenging relationship dynamics to foundational cooking techniques and everything in between.
Whether you are a seasoned host or looking to develop new friendships and grow in your skills for the first time, there is a seat at the table. Join us weekly for new conversations with expert guests and with Kayty in her beloved Date with Kayt episodes. Continue the conversation @gatheritentionalliving
Making Room by Gather
How To Walk Into A Room: The Art of Knowing When to Stay and How to Walk Away w/ Emily P Freeman
I don't know about you but in the course of my adult life, I have had some very defining moments that required me to question- "Should I stay, or is it time to walk away?"
Join us for an enriching conversation with Emily P Freeman, the insightful author of "The Next Right Thing" and her latest book, "How to Walk into a Room." Emily offers a treasure trove of wisdom on gracefully navigating these very transitions, tackling the pervasive issue of decision fatigue with her thoughtful guidance. Her perspective is a breath of fresh air for anyone feeling the weight of change, encouraging us to embrace who we become in the process of making life’s pivotal choices.
We explore Emily’s unique approach to discernment and transition, rooted in her love for storytelling and journaling. Her latest work challenges the traditional January-bound resolutions, urging us to extend our self-reflection throughout the year. Emily's ideas on goal setting are not just about achieving more, but about finding clarity and ease as we move forward in our personal and professional lives. She illuminates the shifting sands of generational attitudes towards careers, loyalty, and entrepreneurship, providing valuable insights into how these cultural shifts influence our identity and choices.
Our conversation wouldn't be complete without discussing the importance of emotional safe havens during times of change. Emily shares how recognizing those who genuinely hold space for us can make all the difference. We also touch on the empowerment drawn from connecting with our ancestry and the broader narratives of which we are a part. Tune in for a wealth of practical tools and inspiration to help navigate your own transitions, whether you're stepping into a new role or reimagining your path.
Follow Emily @EmilyPFreeman
There are a few names of people that have commonly come up in friend groups that I've been in all around the world, and while Michael Buble is one of them, Emily P Freeman has always been another one. She is very commonly known for her book the Next Right Thing, and you'll hear me say that a lot refer to her work in that book. A lot and friends have often encouraged me with the same. Well, it was a joy more than a joy, it was profound and an honor to host her on the show today, and we are talking about her latest book, how to Walk into a Room. Guys, this conversation is poignant. If you listened to my episode with Liz Walsh a few weeks ago, you will remember that I learned how to use that word, Very proud to use it again. It is perfect timing for those who are really in every walk of life. I have said since having this conversation with Emily and since reading the book, that I'm going to gift this to friends in every season of transition that you could possibly imagine, because it's such a grace-filled approach, such an insightful approach. You could tell that Emily knows the heart of the person in transition and speaks exactly to them. Well, enough gushing If you do not know who Emily is, Emily P Freeman is the New York Times bestselling author of six books.
Speaker 1:The Next Right Thing, A Simple, Soulful Practice for Making Life Decisions, how to Walk into a Room, the Art of Knowing when to Stay and when to Walk Away are just the names of two of the ones that she's getting a lot of attention for right now. With a master's degree in spiritual formation and leadership from Friends University, her most important work is to help create soul space and offer spiritual direction and discernment for anyone struggling with decision fatigue. Her nationally ranked podcast, the Next Right Thing, has more than 27 million downloads, and she regularly offers perspective and clarity through her weekly newsletter, the Soul Minimalist. Emily is a glad partner to her husband, John, and together they have three children, two in college and one in high school. Guys, you are going to be just awestruck and encouraged and left with so much food for thought after this conversation. I am so grateful that I get to bring it to you Well after this conversation. I am so grateful that I get to bring it to you. Well.
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Speaker 1:Hi, I'm Katie, a hospitality educator and the host of Making Room by Gather podcast. I am set to see our communities get back to the table through hospitality, but it wasn't always this way. My husband and I moved to Thailand and through it I experienced some loneliness, and with it I was given a choice to sit back and accept it or to do something about it. And for me that meant two things that I needed the healing to learn how to accept an invitation and the confidence to know how to extend one. Through this process, I developed some of the richest and deepest relationships of my life.
Speaker 1:Through Making Room by Gather, you will hear conversations from myself and experts in the areas of food, design and relationships. You see there are countless things trying to keep us from the table. But can I tell you something? Take a seat because you are ready, you are capable, you are a good host. Oh my goodness. I have been so ready for this conversation. For a while. You've been so gracious with us. I'm so excited to be here. We are celebrating a launch of your latest book. How to Walk into a Room and remind me when was the launch of this book, the official launch? So?
Speaker 2:this book, released in March of 2024. So we're not quite a year yet.
Speaker 1:Okay, okay. Well, we are very excited for you. I feel like the conversation behind it is one that all of us can will be encouraged by in one direction or another, so I want to dive into it. So I have been in communities that have deeply been inspired by your work for years, and you offer such a level of I'll call it understanding of the human heart through your writing. That's so approachable and it's refreshing to receive, and I think if anyone reads your work, they'll know what I'm talking about. And one thing I know is people that carry this kind of understanding of people and relationship often have gone through a lot to get to that place, and so I want to hear more of your story. What do you want people to know about becoming the Emily Freeman that we know today?
Speaker 2:Well, it's a good question and it's so funny. I've heard that Maybe you've heard that saying before that says we can't read our own label, and so it's really hard sometimes to know what are the moments in time, what's the narrative arc of my own life, that have sort of shaped me into becoming the person who I am and am continuing to become. But I do know that I'm someone who pays attention to what keeps my attention, and so for me over the years that's been the interplay of faith and creativity. I'm endlessly fascinated by knowing what keeps us healthy and what makes us sick.
Speaker 2:And when I say that I guess I mean more on an inner life level, the headlines that won't show up in your newsfeed or on your phone or TV screen, but the headlines of our very own soul and what's happening within us. And I guess I've probably come by that fairly naturally. When I was really little I was somebody who was kind of always making up stories in my head, and then when I grew a little bit maybe like middle school, high school I started to narrate my own life in the form of journaling and storytelling of my own life and kind of I'm a natural reflector, and so I think that somehow I have found a way to make a living out of that.
Speaker 1:That's great.
Speaker 2:I'm grateful for, but I am, I'm also really interested in, and I have found a lot of rich I don't want to say content, that's not the word I'm looking for but a lot of rabbit trails to follow that have become books. When it comes to, what does it look like? What does formation of the human soul look like through the process of decision making, and what has it done in me in those moments when I've had big decisions to make that I thought at the time you know this decision to go to grad school or to have kids or to get married I'm kind of working in backwards order there. You know sort of some of the big decisions that we've made over our lives, but at the time the decision felt like the thing. But as I reflect on those moments in our life where big things have happened or where we've made big moves, I recognize that, yeah, the decision's important, but what's even more important in many ways is the person who I am becoming as I make my decisions.
Speaker 1:Wow, goodness, that's such a beautiful process to think through. What a beautiful lens. Well, with that, as we're recording, we're towards the start of a new year. Can't believe we're halfway through January. I feel like it's flying, but a lot of people find themselves trying to figure out what's next.
Speaker 1:There's a huge emphasis on goal setting, looking out to the year, mapping your time all of these things right. They just saturate our feeds to almost. I look at it almost like a pressure cooker to muster up all the knowledge we have, all the strength, all the might and figure out the perfect way forward, and I think it's unsustainable. Because of this pressure, so many people don't make it to the start of the next year, or as long as they would like, with their goals because of this underlying stress that comes with it. But you welcome us into a new conversation and approach that, I think, invites us to a deep exhale, and that's what we can call discernment. For many, this is not a new concept. For others, this might be totally new, and so I would love to start off by you walking us through, I guess, the definition of this. So how would you define discernment?
Speaker 2:Well, first, I'll just speak briefly to that January first of the year pressure. I like to say that January is the new week between Christmas and the new year. I like to take the whole month of January and sometimes into February to really reflect on the year we just had. There's no way we can fit that into that one week between. It's a glorious week between Christmas and the new year, but we want to do puzzles, we don't want to plan our whole life and look back on everything. So I like extending that and I think this discernment concept, to kind of answer your question, is I think that plays a part. Discernment concept, to kind of answer your question, is I think that plays a part.
Speaker 2:Discernment is an interesting word. It's a rich word, if you'll let it be. A lot of us maybe have heard it in faith spaces, for example. It's a word that's sort of a. It holds hands with decision-making. But it's quite different in my experience and kind of in my definition of the word, in that discernment is a process where decision making is more sort of like an action or maybe a moment in time. I think decision making is much more compelling to us because it's actionable, it kind of gets a result. It gets us to an answer and while there is a process there, when you're making a decision, you know you're kind of headed somewhere. Discernment is much more nuanced. It's a formation process necessary to grow our faith, to teach us what it means to hear our inner selves, our inner wisdom, to hear God, to determine our yeses from our nos, and it also draws us into community.
Speaker 2:I think discernment is a deeply communal practice. It's about becoming a wholehearted person, about learning how to lead confidently from a space of unknowing. And what does it look like to begin to know? I think all of this is part of our formation mind, body and spirit. And I'll also say you know body and spirit.
Speaker 2:And I'll also say you know, unfortunately, discernment can be deeply inefficient. It can take a lot of time and patience, and that's why I think a lot of us would prefer to think of things as like well, I'm making a decision, this is clear, it's active, it's final. I would much rather have a decision to make than a move to discern. But when it comes to those big moments in life or influencing change within a system or leaving a meaningful identity-forming room that's been a part of our lives for a long time. We're rarely confronted with a simple binary decision to make. Instead, we have to enter into a process of determining what is going to be the most generative space for me, for my family, for my work life, whatever the question is, and so I think discernment, in short, is really a process of naming what we know to be true that may not have been true in the past.
Speaker 1:Wow, that's so comprehensive and so well said, gives us a lot to think about and process through. Well, with that, you recently we said you released your book, and I love the subtitle as well how to Walk into a Room, the Art of Knowing when to Stay and when to walk away, and I don't think that there's enough resources on this for the person kind of learning about discernment for the first time or approaching these hard decisions, and so I'm so grateful that you brought it into culture right now. I think it's very timely, and I went through the book taking notes on what to talk about, and I could have you here for a whole series if we went through all of them. But when you're thinking through who this book is for, I would love for you to maybe give us some examples of some things that people might be needing to walk away from, along with some things that they might need to be walking towards.
Speaker 2:Well, the reality is we are always leaving various rooms of our lives, and when I say room, I just mean any type of commitment, any type of place that we have found to be comfortable, or a family place, or a workplace, whatever it might be but we're always entering and leaving rooms, and whether that is the room of relationship, personal or professional, the room of vocation maybe it's a job or a volunteer opportunity that you maybe sense has run its course, we watch people in the public do this all the time. I mean, I think the Duke and Duchess of Sussex you know they sort of left the royal. You know their royal duties senior royal duties in 2020. We watched that happen publicly. We saw Simone Biles pull out of the Olympics on live TV in 2020. It was actually in 2021, but it was the 2020 Olympics. The Beatles broke up, if you were here way back then.
Speaker 2:There's a lot of public exits that we see happen, but what we're missing is what happened behind closed doors, what led to the process of those very public figures leaving those rooms. And then what we also often don't see is what rooms they walk into. But we all are familiar with this in our own lives, and so we all know what it is to leave something behind or to enter into a new opportunity, a new role, maybe a new role even in the same job. It could be a new, like becoming a parent for the first time, or a grandparent or a step parent. It could be just moving to a new house or a new neighborhood or starting some type of relationship that you haven't had before. So we all know what it means, but a lot of us don't think about that process, and so I think that there are times when we are in the middle, maybe standing at the threshold between rooms, and I found I wanted to provide something, a framework, a conversation for us to normalize this process of leaving rooms and finding new ones, because often what can happen if we don't normalize it is maybe there's something that you loved and you've prayed for to get there, maybe you even paid a lot of money, you got a degree to get this particular job, let's say.
Speaker 2:And then time goes on and maybe things change in you or around you and you start to question it. What can happen is, if it's not a normalized like, hey, we're human people and we're always the healthy human rhythm of life is to leave rooms and find new ones. But if we don't have that normalized, what happens is we start to maybe be resentful of our environment, we feel guilty for questioning it because other people would kill for this opportunity and here I am questioning it and so sometimes we stay past our time because we don't have a process for discerning whether or not it's time for us to go. And so that's really why I wrote this book is because I had wished I had that, but also I wanted to provide it for other people to know that, hey, this is normal, and also know that every new beginning, even if you wanted it and loved it and hoped for it, it's going to probably be preceded by some kind of ending, and that might be hard or sad. And here's some ways we can process.
Speaker 1:Wow, emily, so good, and honestly, I'm not yeah, I'm not hearing this conversation other places, so it's so healthy that it's coming to the table. I was thinking as you were saying that do you think that this is I mean, it's definitely a generational change. Like I'm thinking back to my grandparents era and a very common conversation is oh, I worked at the same job for 40 years and there's almost this like value on, like loyalty and long-term commitment. Do you know what I'm saying? Like, do you see a change with the generation?
Speaker 2:I do, and I think it also depends on your cultural and social location, because there may be some families or situations where the opposite is valued.
Speaker 2:It's all about the communal value, because some people like if you come from an entrepreneurial family, for example, the value might be starting something new, it might be taking risk, it might be not staying in one place for too long. So it really comes down to what's the narrative of your familial, social, cultural surroundings and based on that, that's going to determine how you feel about staying or leaving. And it's not just a decision, because the reality is staying or leaving could be neutral, but we attach meaning to it, we attach sometimes morality to it, because it's not just about making a decision to stay or leave. It becomes about our identity Am I a stayer or am I a leaver? Am I a quitter? And once we bring that decision into our identity now it's like, okay, now it's rooted and mixed up and tied to a whole bunch of things beneath the surface in our inner life, to where that decision now can become that much more difficult to discern. Which is why I think we need this process to walk ourselves through.
Speaker 1:Wow, wow, wow. So good, remind me, do you have a background in sociology? I don't, but I love the question. Yeah, cause I mean you, we. I think we share that love cause I don't either, but I just I love people, I love cultures. I love because I don't either, but I just I love people, I love cultures. I love understanding why people do what they do, and it sounds like you do too.
Speaker 2:Well, I'm a, I'm a trained listener really. I mean, that really is my. My professional training is as a listener, and I say that not as a counselor but as a first it was sign language interpreting, so it was really part of my job and I got nationally certified for this was to translate one language into another. But so much about the deaf culture and the deaf community is paying attention to not just what's being said but what's meant by being what's being said, and you had to interpret more. You know, kind of like, the intention behind the words. And so that was sort of my like undergrad training, undergrad training.
Speaker 2:And then I became a spiritual director years later where I'm also listening and holding prayerful space for people in their spiritual lives and what's caught up to in their lives, in and around them. So it's another kind of way of paying attention to, like what's happening beneath the surface. What do we say, but what do we mean? And so there is some professional training there behind the scenes. But I also think it is just like a natural proclivity to being endlessly fascinated by what makes people tick, and kind of the stories that we tell ourselves Thanks for that wording from Brene Brown Like what is the story I'm telling myself, and you know I'm always paying attention to that, not just in my own life, but in the lives of like literally everyone around me.
Speaker 1:Wow. Well, I am soaking it up because I feel like it's my language too and I'm like it's very refreshing. Well, there is a very helpful tool that you include in the book, and these are 10 questions, and remind me what audience these 10 questions are for. This is to those leaving or coming.
Speaker 2:Okay, so thank you for asking that. Listen, people have told me, as they've read this book, they're like I need to read it again because you ask so many questions in this book and it's so true, I hope they're helpful.
Speaker 2:You know, I've thought about like if I were just to pull we could write. I feel like it'd be like a whole half the book is just questions. So I have, you know, towards the beginning of the process of discerning is it time to leave or stay? You know, is it time to leave or maybe you discern it's time to stay? I do have sort of an official 10 questions that you can ask yourself when you're questioning a room. But then towards the end of the book, when you're you know, as you've gone through this process, there's also a list of really helpful 10 more questions to sort of ask yourself. And this could be honestly. It's it's framed up for as you're entering into your next thing, but it could truly be used for any, any kind of situation that you're in, whether you're kind of evaluating the rooms you're in or where am I now. It's sort of like a place to get you present to what is true right now. So that's sort of what these would be helpful for, I think.
Speaker 1:Phenomenal. I respond, my personality responds very well to guides like this, and so you were saying that maybe there's too many. I'm like no, no, no, there's not enough.
Speaker 2:Like I could use all the questions.
Speaker 1:But if it would be okay with you, here's what I'm picturing this next, these next few minutes, looking like I'm going to read you one of the questions that you wrote, like from next few minutes, looking like I'm going to read you one of the questions that you wrote from the book, and I would love for you to process as much or as little as you would like, expand on them as much or as little as you would like, just to give people a better grasp on how to use this as they're entering their own rooms in this next season. Sound good, that sounds great. Okay. So the first one is what is mine to do?
Speaker 2:This is a question we've probably seen floating around the internet.
Speaker 2:I first heard it from Suzanne Stabile, who is an Enneagram teacher, wisdom teacher, and she talks about you know, kind of her sort of way that she moves through the world is she tends to do more than is hers to do, she tends to take on too much, and so I think this is a great question, though, even if that's not your tendency or personality is to ask ourselves always what is mine to do here in this moment, in this room, as I'm entering this space?
Speaker 2:What belongs to me and keeping in mind that as we walk into a room, if we hold that question with us, it could keep us from overfunctioning and that's a word that was new to me in the last five or so years is it's keep me from doing more than my share of responsibilities here, because the reality is it is possible to. I think it's good to follow in other people's footsteps and learn from them, but we don't want to live someone else's life, and so paying attention to what is mine to do here in this space can give some longevity into the rooms that we enter rather than burning us all the way out. So good.
Speaker 1:So so good, Wow. Well, the second is where or with whom can I safely feel my feelings?
Speaker 2:You know, as we mentioned before, when you leave a room, a lot of emotion may come up there, even if you were happy to go, and that means that when you enter a new one, new emotions may rise up.
Speaker 2:And so there has to be a place as you kind of cross a threshold into a new situation, environment, even if it's celebratory, there has to be a place, as you kind of cross a threshold, into a new situation, environment, even if it's celebratory, there has to be a place where you are able to safely feel your feelings without the person who is holding space for you to, without them feeling the need to fix it or to agenda you or anything like that.
Speaker 2:Feelings are meant to be felt, and so it may not be appropriate to share your feelings in every room that you enter, but I think it's good to know and name in advance who are those safe people who can walk with you, even if it's just metaphorically, as you enter these rooms and consider that your feelings matter Obviously you're not going to make all your decisions based on just feeling, but that they do have a seat at the table, so having people or even a person in your life who you can safely say how you really feel about this new situation you're walking into is so, so important kind of like mentorship takeaways.
Speaker 1:For me early in marriage was a mentor saying Katie, not every friend is meant to carry every role and I am an extrovert, I love people, but I was also learning how to process, like vulnerability, authenticity, and I just wanted to process everything with everyone. I wanted everyone to be everything. It was a messy season. Everything with everyone, I wanted everyone to be everything. It was a messy season, but that was so helpful for me to manage expectations, to prevent relationship burnout, everything that you're talking about and so I think it's so important for us to process that, to know who we could safely feel your feelings with, because that's not everyone's safely feel your feelings with, because that's not everyone's, all of our friends' jobs, right?
Speaker 2:That's right, yes, and we could never. It's unfair to expect it to be so, and so I love that wisdom that you added.
Speaker 1:I think that's really important. Very, very good, wow, well, who is with me is number three.
Speaker 2:There is a thing about when you enter into new space. Oftentimes you're doing it by yourself. You know if you start a new job, you're the new person in the job, or if you're going to a new school or if you move to a new town. So walking into a room as the new person, by definition, often means you're doing so alone, and so it's been helpful for me to practice presence and awareness as I enter new rooms, considering that, in reality, I'm actually bringing. I am bringing some people with me. I'm bringing all the people who love me. Though they may not be here, they can be with me in spirit. I'm bringing even my ancestors who have come before me.
Speaker 2:That's not language I normally use, but I do think about. Like I have a mother and I had a grandmother and a great grandmother who thought life was always going to be the way it was right then for them, and then things changed and they now are no longer here, but I continue on and it's because they were here first. So recognizing that I am part of a longer story and it's not a perfect story, but I carry it on, and walking into this new room is a part of that and, I think, also recognizing God who walks into the room with me. That God's promise to us is. I find more comfort in the promise of God that God is not, that God is in control, but that God is with me, there's presence there no matter what happens. And the reality is we really never have to walk into a room alone.
Speaker 1:Goodness, never have to walk into a room alone. Goodness, I think that ancestral is that the word? Like awareness, because that's not a term that I use often either. I think that's really profound and almost empowering in a way. Yeah, I think so too. Yeah, wow, goodness. Yeah, I like that. I'm going to chew on that some more after this. But the next one is what do I need more of right now?
Speaker 2:There's no use faking it or making it sound good. I think, just honestly, in the moment as we are in our spaces, as we're being present, of just honestly taking account what do I need more of right now? Do I need more? Do I need more sleep? Do I need more clarity? Do I need some more time? Do now, do I need more? Do I need more sleep? Do I need more clarity? Do I need some more time? Do I need more belonging? Do I wish I was understood? I don't.
Speaker 2:I don't think we have to find the energy all the time to make our needs sound impressive or to even find ways to meet them, but just being aware that they're there.
Speaker 2:And I say that because a lot of times when we are on the opposite side, which is I'm deciding to leave a room, we often find ourselves with kind of a buildup of resentment or frustration that lives on the top and we're like I need to get out of this place because I'm so tired or because everything's the worst.
Speaker 2:It's because we don't ask ourselves what do I need more of right now? Often enough, and because of that things can build up, I think, and kind of take up space in our inner life and, I think, asking yourself this question while we may not always be able to get the more that we want, the reality is you might want it, and so it's really good to pay attention to those desires that live beneath the surface, because knowing they're there helps us live more authentically in the moment and I and for me at least it keeps me from kind of building up that resentment or that like I'm trying to be everything for everyone else and no one's here for me, you know, just recognizing wait, what do I need right now? And just being aware of that.
Speaker 1:That's really good. As we're going into this new year, my husband, colby and I were processing a lot and we've done so. We transitioned back from Thailand to the States, launched a small business, went through COVID, lots of seasons that we've needed to like, process and work through and seeking out mentorship and just healing and all of that stuff, and we said at the beginning of this year we're like this year we actually need a little less of that and a little more fun, and that was really profound to us because we are able to more intentionally pick the rooms that we're going through this year with that kind of in mind, and so I can understand that and I think a lot of people will be able to too. That's good, beautiful, okay, what is? Oh, there we go. What is the best thing that can happen here? So good.
Speaker 2:Well, my default is usually the opposite, is to, as I start something new is, I'll kind of go to the opposite end, which is what is the worst thing that might happen here? But to ask what is the best thing that could happen here is making a practice to consider that the best thing is possible, that what if it all does work out? Like what a mind, what a wonderful mind. Experiment to practice hopeful things in every room that we enter, and this allows us to sort of move beneath the banner of a hopeful vision rather than trying to move underneath the burden of potential catastrophe, which is really no way to live.
Speaker 1:Can you say that part again, the banner of potential catastrophe, which is really no way to live Can you say that part again, the banner of what?
Speaker 2:Do you remember what you said? Yeah, just sort of living beneath living and learning to move beneath the banner of a hopeful vision of the space that you're in, rather than if you're asking yourself what's the worst thing that can happen all the time. You're sort of living underneath the burden of potential catastrophe at every moment, at every turn. And I don't know about you, but I don't come up with my best ideas or have my most trusting relationships if I'm constantly considering what's the worst thing that might happen.
Speaker 1:Yes, yeah, I love that visual and I love how that's said. The next one what have I had too much of?
Speaker 2:lately. Well, I love that you just kind of answered this one, because I think that was such a great example of that. Just the question alone could help us set boundaries in the rooms of our lives and to clarify if a particular room was good for us. Today, For example, I just lived through this and this is kind of a silly example, you know, if I mean I just lived through this in and this is kind of a silly example, but we have several birthdays right around Christmas. So we have Christmas and then New Year's and then we have, you know, my twins birthday and then a couple other family members birthdays.
Speaker 2:And let me tell you what, by like January the fourth, I was like I have had too much celebration. I cannot go to one more party, I cannot make one more toast, and I mean my body was telling me like you need like a piece of bread and like some soup and a long nap. Just, you know, your body kind of tells you when you've had too much of something. But I think the same can be true when it comes to environments and decisions, that knowing like just you know, the experience of life tells me we've been a bit too serious or the opposite. We've been celebrating a little bit too much and I need some like stability. So asking what I've had too much of lately, I think can be a helpful, informative question.
Speaker 1:Wow, really good. I was giggling a little bit because I was. I can understand that. Do you know that meme? And I shouldn't make fun of this lady, but the meme went so viral. It was that woman who was getting ready for a blizzard and they said what's your plan for the blizzard? And she said I'm going to eat some soup and dessert and get all fat and sassy. Do you know what I'm talking about? No, I haven't seen that one. It's so sweet. She's an older lady who just planned on eating dessert and bread and being all sassy during the storm and I kind of got that sweet visual Okay so the other one is what bothers me most?
Speaker 2:A lot of us, depending on you, know again that social, family, cultural, location, the question, what bothers you might not be one that you tend to ask yourself very often. In fact, some of us probably try to avoid admitting what's bothering us. But I do think that knowing and naming what bothers us can be really powerful, because really any meaningful change we've ever made in our lives probably started by us being bothered. And even small changes too, Like I mean, I'm bothered that my hair's too long. I'm going to get a haircut, you know, even something as small as that goes like it does start with being bothered or frustrated and so asking ourselves, like what bothers me the most? That's one to pay attention to, because the reality is there might be 10 things that bother you in this new space that you're entering.
Speaker 2:But if there's one that bothers you the most, that's one that maybe you can take action on, because we can't take action on everything, but some of the things that bother us are things that could be a clue to our next right thing. And sometimes things bother us because we are uniquely made and designed and even like have a unique proclivity towards impacting meaningful change in an area. So you'll see a lot of times you know the things that break our hearts, the news stories that kind of keep us up at night. A lot of times we can feel helpless because we feel like there's nothing I can do to change this. But if you start to get to that place where you feel bothered by something, pay attention, because that's a really powerful motivator toward asking myself that question what is mine to do here? And what is just one next right thing I can do within my own sense of agency to impact change in this area?
Speaker 1:I think it's really important to give people the invitation to make room for that. I've really never processed that and wow, that's really good. I mean, yeah, it's very common to be told like well, everything bothers you, or um, I don't know, to almost feel guilty. I guess that's what I'm getting at, to feel like it's a negative, like a negative quality yeah. That's yeah, that's really good, that's really good. So the thing that bothers me most, wow. The next one is what do I have to offer?
Speaker 2:I think presence matters a lot here, and I think a lot of us forget that we have something to offer in the form of the person who we are, not just what we can do for everybody.
Speaker 1:Wow.
Speaker 2:So, knowing and naming what you have to offer in the form of your wisdom, your clarity, the joy you bring, the discern, naming that as a thing, as something important, can help us, helps me show up more fully in the room. Wow, wow, wow, wow. The last two. Last but certainly not least but what needs undoing? Well, I think a lot of times again, we ask the opposite is what needs doing? But a lot of times, something needs to be undone.
Speaker 2:And when we're faced with confusion or tragedy, chaos, difficulty, our first question is often well, we got to do something about it. But I think and that might be true, but I think we also need to consider is there anything here that needs to first be undone? And this might be true when it comes to systems or groups or the way things have always been done. You know, you hear that a lot. Well, this is how we've always done it. Well, what might need to be undone in order for the system to be more just, to be more inclusive, to be more of something that it can't be if it continues to go the way it's always gone?
Speaker 1:Wow, I remember when I first started writing, first started processing all of this, I called my blog the sweet unraveling.
Speaker 1:And and people would laugh at me. They're like, katie, unraveling is a bad thing. Are you sure that's the word you want to use? I'm like, oh, I am very sure this is exactly the terminology I'm going for, um, because it wasn't unraveling and it was sweet, you know. Yeah, and there were some very significant things that needed to be undone in order for growth, in order for health, in order for all of this on the other side, in order to if we're talking about it in this context enter new opportunities. Well, and so it's very sweet for me to read that, because I do get it. I do get it, and I think it's an important process that not many of us understand. Hmm, make space for, yeah, it's good. Well, lastly, who can I ask for help?
Speaker 2:This one's a good reminder that the discernment process is a communal one, and there's something really profound and joyful about being human together. So, if we want to do our good work for the long haul and when I say good work I mean both vocation, but also the work of building a family and being part of a community and doing good in the world there's longevity there that we want to be true, and so this work of love, of activism, of ministry, we can't do this alone, and so we need to pay attention to those people who are bothered by the same things. We're bothered by people we can link arms with in order to impact change, and so I think that's who. Can I ask for help? That's an important question to have kind of in our arsenal of questions that we are asking when it comes to the spaces that we're entering.
Speaker 1:Really good, I love that these are in the book. Really good, I love that these are in the book. But as I'm looking at these questions on my notes, I'm like man, this would be a great thing to print and tape into a planner on your mirror. It's just, they're good processing questions, because I don't see these things as questions that are processed like instantly. It's almost like a, it's a process, right, it's a big time to chew through them and to land on answers, the whole discernment concepts that we're talking about.
Speaker 1:So they are in the book, though for listeners who are wanting to chew through them more having to make the types of decisions of what rooms to enter and to leave, hard conversations, the brink of change, all of that. And I could think of people in my life too who have felt that maybe they can't trust themselves in making these decisions or maybe, beyond that, that they'll make the wrong decision. And you talk a lot about the concept of being your own friend, building trust with yourself in the process of deciding these next steps. So I would love to know what you say to the person who maybe feels frozen or needs to develop that. I'll call it a reckoning with themselves in this process.
Speaker 2:It's a beautiful question. It's one I have a lot of compassion for. I think the first thing I would probably ask this person is to see if they could name what they're afraid of, or at least one thing they might be afraid of. From there I might see if there's just one next right thing they feel comfortable doing. Several authors that I have read and admire. One is Marie Forleo and the other is a new author. Her name is Tracy G. She has a book releasing in January called the Magic of Knowing what you Want, but they both talk about the importance of how action leads to clarity and how we can't.
Speaker 2:I think it's Tracy who says you can't answer a. How does she say it? It's basically how you can't answer a doing question. Hold on, let me look it up so we can cut this out right. You can edit yeah, yeah, of course. Yeah, because it's worth finding the actual quote. You can't answer a. How does she say this about a question? Can't answer a doing you can't. Oh, I know what it is.
Speaker 2:Okay, I think it's Tracy who says you can't think your way through a doing question, and that has been so helpful for me, because I think the person who feels frozen, is working really hard to solve the problem of their decision in their head. But clarity comes. And Marie Forleo says you can't rush clarity, which means we can't force it to come before it's ready. But she also says, on the flip side of that, clarity comes from action, not thought. So I quote her a lot, and now I'm adding Tracy into the mix, because this idea of clarity coming from action can be deeply satisfying after we move, but it can be deeply terrifying before we move because we don't know what's going to happen on the other side. But I can speak from experience, as someone who I am doing repressed, like I would much rather. I feel my way through the world and I can think my way through the world, but when it comes to action, that is my last resort. So I know of that which I speak.
Speaker 2:But I think, if we can, instead of thinking about making big moves, there is a lot of power in small moves and so thinking that, okay, what is just one next right thing I can do in the direction that I think I want to go, next right thing I can do in the direction that I think I want to go, recognizing that the emphasis isn't on the word right, but on the word next, what is just one next thing you can do and you don't have to start or end all at once, and that's why the discernment process is one that I love to think about, rather than the decision-making process, because decision feels it's not, but we often kind of interpret it as if it's binary, like I'm going to do this and now it's just one step.
Speaker 2:But actually most decisions, especially big ones, are many, many, many small moves over a period of maybe even a long time. So if someone's feeling frozen, I think that in a long, long answer to say, I think that's what I would say is recognizing the power of small moves. But a small move is better than no move at all.
Speaker 1:Wow. Well, to the person listening today who's thinking, wow, I would love to really grow in this. I would love to have someone walk through this with me, whether it's a mentor, a spiritual director Well, kind of answering the question, but I'd love to hear from you as well who is the type of person that maybe they should seek out. How can they seek them out? I guess, walk them through that a little bit.
Speaker 2:Well, I do think that remembering we can be this person for ourselves is really important and that's why I wrote the book is I hope that the book can help you be that person for yourself. But I also think we need each other, and so one of the things my husband and I did when this was back in 2013, when he had been a pastor for 12 years and really felt led out of that role, that official role kind of, in the church, but wasn't sure what was next. So what we did was we gathered a group of what we called co-listeners, and they were people in our lives who knew us really well, who were kind of yes, and people. They weren't going to shut us down, they were going to kind of hear us and then maybe offer something in a very improv way. They were people who knew how to ask the second and third question, so they didn't just want to hear what we had to say and then give us an answer, but they knew how to hold that kind of open space for us to be able to talk, and then they could ask follow-up questions and then follow-up questions of the follow-up questions, and that was really important to us. So we called them co-listeners.
Speaker 2:Years later I learned that this is actually. There's actually a thing among the Religious Society of Friends, otherwise known as the Quakers, and they have this process kind of perfected and that's something that we have benefited from, as we have participated in and worshipped in a Quaker community for the last several years. But they call this a clearness committee, where you kind of bring this just like. It's very much similar to what I just shared, but we did it informally and didn't know it was like a thing, but later learned it was a thing and so that was really really beautiful. But the same way, the clearness community listens and they ask questions and they let you kind of talk your way all the way out and then are not afraid of silence in community, which I think is really powerful.
Speaker 2:So I think, just avoid the people who you there might be. Here's what I'll say. There might be people in your life who you think you ought to be able to trust or you think you ought to ask for their opinion when it comes to whatever this decision you're making. But for whatever reason, you have a sense you have some type of hesitation and I would encourage you to listen to that hesitation that you get to talk to people who you have full confidence as best as you know how to trust them, and that it's okay. If there's a certain person or group of someone's who, just with this particular decision, don't quite make the cut, that's okay.
Speaker 1:Incredible. So many different ways that we could take this Wherever you're at listener. Oh my gosh Words are a little hard sometimes. Oh my gosh Words are a little hard Words are hard.
Speaker 1:Words are hard. Coffee is good, but I need more of it. So I guess what I'm saying is wherever you're at listeners like whether you're looking to leave a room, walk into a room, maybe helping someone going through this process there's really something for all of us to process in this. So much more in the book. I would encourage all of you guys to run and get your copy available for delivery right now, which is always a treat. Emily, I'd love to hear from you what maybe didn't we cover that you would like people to know about the book.
Speaker 2:Oh, you know, I didn't expect that question.
Speaker 1:Sorry, you could skip it if you'd like.
Speaker 2:No, I think it's fine. A couple things I would say. One is anybody who has this book. I have a free offering for everybody who has the book.
Speaker 2:In the back there's a QR code that you can scan with your phone and it takes you directly to the Quiet Collection app, which is an app that we've developed, and inside that it will basically you'll follow the process, you'll put your email in, blah blah blah and you will get a special code to download a collection of blessings for hellos and goodbyes that we have created specifically for readers of this book, because I assume that anybody who has the need to pick this book up, they're most likely saying both hellos and goodbyes, so I created a series of blessings that you can listen to. There's also transcripts if you prefer to read them, and that's something that's just a lot of people don't know about, but it's just there for the reader and it's free, and so I like to mention that. But again, that's called the. It's a collection of blessings for hellos and goodbyes, and so that's, again, just scanned in the back of the book, available for anyone who has it.
Speaker 1:What an incredible gift. I actually didn't get to that point, so I'm going to have to do that myself, but we end each of our conversations with the same three questions for all of our guests, and I'd love to hear your answers as well as we get to know you. The first one is something that you have eaten recently and loved.
Speaker 2:Oh gosh. Okay, so I make this. It's kind of a Panera dupe soup. It's a chicken and wild rice soup, that the one that you can get at Panera, but you can make it at home too, and I forgot about it for this whole season until recently, and I just made it this weekend and I was so happy because it's delicious I've actually, I can't believe it.
Speaker 1:I've never got, I've never ordered that one. Oh it's so good.
Speaker 2:I mean it's good at panera, but also you can make it at home. So I'm here to tell you that's amazing.
Speaker 1:That's great.
Speaker 2:Okay, something you have found to be beautiful lately, one of my favorite things to do lately is I get up in the morning. It's this time of year, it's before the sun comes up, because the sun comes up later, so it's easier and I sit in the corner of my sunroom office and it faces east, and one of the most beautiful parts of my day is when that sun begins to come up over the horizon. Of course, I can't see the sun, I just see the sky changing and it's so beautiful and I'm always so amazed by the reality that this happens every single day, and every day it's just as beautiful. It's like it never gets old.
Speaker 1:Goodness, that's really sweet. As you were saying that, I was like I'm directionally challenged, really bad, and I'm like I'm thinking in my house. I'm like what direction is east in my house? It's awful, oh goodness. Okay, and a gathering. Actually, we switched up our questions. What one do I want to ask you? If you're not prepared for this one, let me know and we could switch back. But our new last question is something random you've discovered recently that you think everyone should know about. I've been loving hearing these answers. It's fun. Yeah, an Amazon purchase a Netflix show, anything random like that.
Speaker 2:Okay, let me think for a second.
Speaker 1:I'm happy to answer it.
Speaker 2:Okay, let me look around, because there are so many things that it could be Okay. Well, this is maybe not everyone should know about, but anybody who has to use your phone for the internet in any way, like if you ever have to make a video, or like I often and you know, working online and doing things online, I often have to make videos. I found this like dumb phone thing I don't even know if it's called. This is terrible. It's got like suctions on the back of it. You just stick it to your phone and then your phone will stick to almost any surface so you can just put it up anywhere, like if you, even if you just like if you want to show something to people, you just stick your phone to the wall and there it is.
Speaker 2:But I found it at Target and it was just like on the end cap. It was, I think, 10 bucks I put on my kids' stockings and it's been so dumb. But also kind of fun because I feel like now I'm not hindered, like when my you know, when I need to make a video for something, I don't have to like prop my phone up on 10 books and make sure it doesn't fall over. It's like I can just stick it to the window and all is well.
Speaker 1:I love that. I've been trying to make that process easier on my end too, and I don't own one yet, so that's, that's good. I'll look into that. And you were talking about stocking stuffers too, and I was just laughing that you were calling it dumb because it's not done dumb, but I get what you're saying.
Speaker 2:It's like well it's like it feels like it should be like there should be something more profound or cool.
Speaker 1:Well, I was making Wesley's stocking and he's only like a year and a half, just about and I wanted everything to be really intentional and I was showing my husband what I got and he pulled out this one super random thing. He's like what the heck is this? I was like Colb I needed one dumb one dumb thing to add to the stocking. That's good. So it was some just like cheesy little thing to add. So that's fun, that's really fun.
Speaker 2:Well, I'm going to attach one of those and it's like a. It's like a grippy, I don't know what it's called Like. It's like a grippy or a suction mount type of thing. That's what it is. You can probably picture.
Speaker 1:I could definitely like think of, like. I've seen influencers use them and so I could picture what you're talking about. I'll link one in the show notes for anyone else that might be interested. Um, I'm going to reference, um, maybe Tracy Chee's book too, um, uh, in the show notes, and then of course, yours, uh, that everyone can get their copy of. Is there a place that's better for people to order than others? That maybe supports you more?
Speaker 2:that you want to send them to buy it. No, not really.
Speaker 1:No, anywhere Okay. So you guys can purchase it wherever books are sold. Um, and where do you want people to follow along website and handles? Where can they find you?
Speaker 2:Oh yeah, you can find me basically it's Emily P Freeman everywhere. Website Instagram I've been playing on blue sky lately, Um, but you know that's not really the place, so would say instagram and um and the website okay, what is blue sky amelie?
Speaker 2:that's new to me yeah, it's like um instead of twitter, slash x, okay, instead of threads. It's like it's like a new version of that called blue sky um, but it's not owned by meta or elon or any of any of those it's. I don't know who the owner is, but it's someone, so it's sort of like. I don't know that a ton of people are there yet, but there are a few people who I follow on other places who have moved over there and seem to like it so far, but it's new, so who knows, who knows what chaos might ensue there eventually.
Speaker 1:Always something new, right To keep up with, but that's right. Thank you so much, emily. This was so rich, so useful. I picture this episode being shared with people in our circles that are going through seasons that could use this kind of wisdom and direction on next steps. So thank you for leading authentically and bring this book out into the world. We appreciate you Absolutely. Thanks for having me, of course. Well, guys, thank you so much and we will see you next week.