Making Room by Gather
Hospitality. What do you think of when you hear that word?
For some it's old school 'stuffy' entertaining for others it's something to do with the hotel industry. One thing is for sure, as a culture we're not talking about it much.
Food * Design * Relationships have seemed to have taken a back seat to what our culture focuses on and values yet...we find ourselves in the midst of a loneliness epidemic. Something has to change, it's time to get back to our tables, and we're making room for it!
Making Room by Gather invites you into a new conversation on everyday hospitality. One that rewrites the way we approach opening your doors and filling your tables. Shifting the narrative from 'how does this make me look' to 'how does this make you feel' these buildable conversations aspire to inspire connection through everyday gathering.
Kayty's chic and a little quirky interview style will make you feel like you're sitting with a friend talking about how to grow in confidence as an everyday host. You can expect conversations from navigating challenging relationship dynamics to foundational cooking techniques and everything in between.
Whether you are a seasoned host or looking to develop new friendships and grow in your skills for the first time, there is a seat at the table. Join us weekly for new conversations with expert guests and with Kayty in her beloved Date with Kayt episodes. Continue the conversation @gatheritentionalliving
Making Room by Gather
Food With a Story Tastes Better: Burn Out Reimagined, PBS, and Storytelling w/ Vivian Howard
I grew up watching PBS- chances are you did too. This made me particularly interested in the life and story of the new show, Kitchen Curious hosted by Vivian Howard. While I expected to connect over our love of food, and a commitment to learning in the kitchen- what I didn't expect was to be deeply inspired by her approach to burn out and creativity.
Through this episode we explore canning 101, how to keep creativity sustainable, and how her new show Kitchen Curious answers the questions that all of us are asking. She's wise, she's incredibly talented and committed to connection and craft! Through this conversation you can expect to hear:
• Easy pickling and canning without special gear
• Burnout, boundaries, and designing creative cadence
• How a rural sizzle reel became a PBS Peabody winner
• Why PBS matters
• Kitchen Curious & why you'll love it!
• Cast iron care made simple (learn from Kayty's mistakes)
• Where and how to stream Kitchen Curious
If you love this episode, be sure to share it with those in your life and leave a review on the show. And most importantly, after listening today, head on over to KitchenCuriousTV.com … and watch the show for yourself.
This Episode is Sponsored by:
Tiny Spoon Chef- Get $100 off your customized in home personal chef service using this link!
Hey, hey guys, I am so glad that you're here. Welcome to Making Room. Today's episode, wow, it surprised me in the best way. It's always so fun for me when I go into a conversation, kind of expecting it to go one direction, and then it takes the sweetest, most unexpected turn, and that was this conversation. Um, this is a new friend to the show, a new friend of mine. Her name is Vivian Howard. She is a chef, an author, a TV show host, and you are going to love her unique, connection-filled, authentic background and just the way that she approaches all of her work and all of her platforms. Uh, I feel um, yeah, like we just share a lot of uh the same heartbeat. And I think that you're going to really love learning more about her and some of her recent projects. Well, if she is new to you, um, here is a little bit more about her before we kick off the show. Vivian Howard is an award-winning author, TV personality chef, and restaurateur. She is a contributing columnist at Garden and Gun Magazine and the author of two cookbooks, This Will Make It Taste Good, and uh Deep Run Roots, um, a New York Times bestseller and IACP cookbook of the year. We love awards. Well, Vivian created and stars in the public television show Somewhere South, a deep dive into the complexity of southern foodways and the docuseries A Chef's Life, for which she won, um, which she has won Peabody, Emmy, and James Beard Awards. Those are huge, huge, huge awards, um, especially in this space. A James Beard Award semifine semi-finalist for Best Chef Southeast. Her restaurants include the Counter at the Chef and Farmer and the Kitchen Bar at the Chef and Farmer in Kinston, uh, North Carolina. Handy and Hot, a bakery and coffee shop in Charleston, South Carolina, and Lenore, a casual upscale restaurant in Charleston. Additionally, she operates Viv's Fridge, a network of smart refrigerators offering prepared meals, snacks, and desserts across North Carolina. And I would encourage you to go to their website and follow them on social media because their offerings are so unique. And for the foodie in me, I'm like, when can I go there just to eat? That's that's really just why I want to travel. We have a lot of friends we want to see there too, but the food is a huge motivator. But um, today's episode, before we dive into the conversation, is presented by our friends at Tiny Spoon Chef. And friends, if you have not heard about them, or if I have not convinced you enough, I really need you to just like dial in and hear me out here. If you are going into the fall with full steam ahead, headed into Q4 with work and things are really busy, or crazy soccer parent life, and you would just are thinking, listen, I hear you with all the foodie talk, um, but all we have time for is takeout and chicken nuggets. Tiny Spoon Chef wants to change that reality. They want to change, change the atmosphere and the cooking culture in your house this season, and they want to cook for you. They want to actually send a personal chef to your house to be a part of your family team. Now here's how it works you head on over to tiny spoonchef.com slash gather and you book a call, and they're going to ask you questions like what are your kids' preferences, what are your food preferences, dietary need, food goals, everything. You could even say my kid hates spicy, but I need to have it. And they're gonna take all the notes. Um, our friend Janice, in a few episodes ago, I interviewed the head of the the founder of the company, and she even said, even if you want to get down to green peppers or the color of the bananas, they want to hear all those details and come and support your family. Head on over to that website, book your call, you will not regret it. They'll come to your house and cook whatever it is your family needs breakfast, lunch, dinner, snacks, homemade protein bars. We have experienced it personally, and I cannot wait to welcome them back. It is an absolute lifesaver, um, whether you are a foodie or just trying to have a little extra support. Um, they are the perfect addition to any family team. And Tiny Spoon is who we recommend most. So head on over to TinySpoonChef.com slash gather for$100 off your for your first week of a private chef service. It is an incredibly generous offer. And if you are curious about the service and want to hear more, head on over to the last podcast episode to hear the deep dive into every single detail. But TinySpoonchef.com slash gather and without waiting any longer. Let's dive into today's conversation. Hi, I'm Katie, a hospitality educator and the host of Making Room by Gather podcast. I am set to see our communities get back to the table through hospitality. But it wasn't always this way. My husband and I moved to Thailand, and through it, I experienced some loneliness. And with it, I was given a choice to sit back and accept it or to do something about it. And for me, that meant two things. That I needed the feeling to learn how to accept an invitation and the confidence to know how to accept one. Through this process, I developed some of the richest and deepest relationships of my life. Through making roof by gather, you will hear conversations from myself and experts in the areas of food, design, and relationships. You see, there are countless things trying to keep us from the table. But can I tell you something? Take a seat because you are ready. You are capable. You are a good host. Okay, well, um, this is so fun for me. I've loved, since you came to my attention recently, just learning more about you and so many launches that you have coming up. I feel like we have so many of the same interests and values and spend our time a lot of the same ways, which is so fun. Um, and I know that your background is deeply influenced by Southern culture, but I am a northern girl through and through. Um, just recently I've started traveling more to the South. So what are some of the things that you would say, what are what are some of the Southern traditions that um Southern traditions that you wish people knew about?
SPEAKER_00:Um, well, you know, I I don't know. Well, you know, I think that things that are traditionally Southern traditions have become um American traditions in many ways. Um and, you know, in the South, uh there was always this tradition of coming together to like preserve food for the, you know, for the fall and the winter. Um so things like canning tomatoes or like shelling and freezing butter beans or putting up corn, um even you know, things that uh relate to the seasons and and and and the food that's produced during during that season. Um, you know, I think that historically Southern families came together to preserve the food that they were going to eat for the fall and winter. That certainly is not what happens today, but I still think that that is a a little known tradition that um brings both young and old together um to share the space and share time and share stories. So I think that's a southern tradition that I wish more Southerners continued to do and something that I think Americans in general, um we would all benefit from more time um working together as family and friends to produce the food that we eat.
SPEAKER_01:As you were saying, talking about canning, it's something I've always wanted to learn more about because I love everything to do with cooking. I love all the gadgets, all the techniques, and that's one area I haven't explored much. Um it's sad though, with the rise of like supermarkets, you know, getting bigger and bigger, we've really lost it. I mean, it is, it's definitely not a norm. I think people consider it a hobby, not a life necessity, if anything.
SPEAKER_00:Absolutely. Yeah, absolutely. It's definitely a hobby. Um, but I think one that is uh justified, you know, um, particularly like let's say canning tomatoes, you know, I don't can a whole bunch of stuff all summer, but the one thing that I try to do every year is can tomatoes. For one, they taste so much fresher um and vibrant than any tomato you buy uh canned in the grocery store. I'm also like a little bit nervous about, you know, eating um acidic things that have sat in aluminum cans for a long time. So there's a there's a modern day reason to do it and a historical reason as well. I mean, I think anything you can do, um canning tomatoes, I've had uh canning parties like multiple times in the past like decade. And often it brings together friends um or family, and you spend an afternoon, everybody has a task, and then everybody gets to take home something that they're gonna every time they bring it out during the year, they're just gonna be thrilled with the work that they put in that summer. It's like, I don't know, it's like the gift that keeps on giving.
SPEAKER_01:Yeah, that's incredible. So I mean, okay, if you were to do a canning party, this is actually probably a great time of year for it, right? I mean, end of what did we just miss it?
SPEAKER_00:Yeah, well, I think, you know, if you were gonna make something like um cabbage kraut um or um something that we call chow chow in the south, which is like chow chow is typically made from going um through your garden right before you're gonna till it under and gathering all the things that are left. So that would be like um green tomatoes that are not gonna ripen fully because you know the the day is no longer long enough for that to work, peppers that are still hanging because peppers will keep producing until there's a frost. Cabbage, um, you know, this is like a mixed pickle that people would typically make with the end of the season garden. So this would be a great time to do that. Um, also any type of cabbage or collard kraut. But if you were to can tomatoes or put up beans of any kind, um that would have happened a little later in the summer. But yeah, the fall is a great time for making like apple preserves that you could then um, you know, can and give away as gifts uh for Christmas or Thanksgiving. Um, yeah, any kraut of any kind or a mixed pickle. And this season is is, you know, when you think of the south, you think of um fried green tomatoes. But green tomatoes are really a fall crop um that exists because they will not ripen given the length of the day in the fall. Wow.
SPEAKER_01:That's interesting.
SPEAKER_00:Yeah, yeah.
SPEAKER_01:No, I'm a sucker. If I go to a farmer's market, I'm a sucker for buying all of it. And I'm like, I love being in the kitchen. I just need to I need to learn up front and then just get in the rhythm. Yeah. Um what are the things that like uh newbies need? I mean, you need one of those pots, right? Those immersed like immersive can. It's like a strainer, but it holds all the mason jars.
SPEAKER_00:Yes, yes. It's a um hot water bath canner. Um, if you're actually gonna can things, but you know, there are a lot of things that you can make, a lot of pickles and preserves that you can make that you don't actually have to can. Um, if you were to give them away as gifts, you know, I would put them in a jar and you know, tighten the lid and then instruct my, you know, guests that they are gonna need to refrigerate it, but they'll keep in the refrigerator for like six months. Most quick pickles, most um fermented pickles, and most uh fruit preserves that you make uh will keep in your fridge uncanned um for at least six months. So if the canning part of it is something that keeps you from doing it, you can still pickle things um and preserve things uh with a tremendous shelf life without using the hot water bath canner.
SPEAKER_01:Okay. That's good. That's good. Really, like, you know, my hundred my great grandma lived to be 104 or something crazy like that. Yeah, in her farmhouse that she was born and raised in. And talk about history, you know. And as little kids, we always played in the like food cellar in the basement, you know, and that was a huge part of their life and canning, but I never I never learned properly. Um, I feel like you might have. Have you ever had the Thai dish cow soy?
SPEAKER_00:I don't know. What is it exactly?
SPEAKER_01:It is a kind of like an orange-ish color curry. It's a soup with an egg noodle, and it's has tons of um pickled vegetables on top.
SPEAKER_00:I don't think I've had that, but I would love to.
SPEAKER_01:I know. Having knowing that you're a foodie um and we're talking about pickling, I'm like, oh, you would really love that. So find a a really, really authentic Thai place, Northern Thai specifically. Um it's so phenomenal. Yeah.
SPEAKER_00:I mean, I love the um what pickles do to a dish. You know, I think that we often think about uh eating pickles, you know, as you know, an appetizer or something we put on a sandwich, but often I love to throw something pickled in at the end of a dish to like bring up the acidity and like, you know, point the flavors more. Um, because pickles are acid, and acid is one of the very important things to balance a dish. So it doesn't always have to be lemon juice to finish something or vinegar to finish something. You could throw in a pickled vegetable or even a pickled fruit.
SPEAKER_01:Yeah. I feel like some of my listeners are probably like, okay, Katie, enough with the pickles.
SPEAKER_00:But um well, they are having a moment.
SPEAKER_01:They are. Yeah.
SPEAKER_00:And it's the summer, so many um pickle lemonades and uh, you know, a lot of like fast casual places are focusing on pickles or did the summer um for whatever reason.
SPEAKER_01:I promise everyone I'll move on in a second. But we uh my husband worked a job where he didn't have access to like a fridge or like uh microwave to heat things up. He was on the road a lot, and so we were doing poke bowls, like the Hawaiian poke, but like no tuna. And oh my gosh, we started doing pickled ginger, and like, oh my gosh, it just comes to life.
SPEAKER_00:Yeah, 100%. Texture and acid.
SPEAKER_01:Yep. Okay, so if you're listening and hating on me at all, try it and then we'll talk. Um well, okay, your career has led you to um, oh yeah, okay, a few different restaurants. I mean, how many? Do you have a number at this point?
SPEAKER_00:Uh yeah, I mean, I have um two restaurants in Charleston. Uh, one is called Lenore, and that um stands for Lenore County, where I live in North Carolina. Because when you grow up in the country, at least here in North Carolina, when people ask you where you're from, you don't say the town, you say the county. And so I always grew up telling people I was from Lenore County. And when I would, you know, meet other people, they're like, why are you telling me the county you're from? So in Charleston, my restaurant is called Lenore. Um, and we have a biscuit and hand pie shop called Handy and Hot. Um, and I opened a uh restaurant in Duck, North Carolina in the Outer Banks this past summer called Theodosia. And I have um the counter and the kitchen bar at Chef and the Farmer in Kinston. And that's um that's all.
SPEAKER_01:Once I was learning more about you, I started following all of them. And oh my gosh, just your attention to aesthetic and the layering of flavor. I'm like, why are you so far away? Connecticut has a good food scene, but have you eaten here recently? Like eaten your rookie, Connecticut?
SPEAKER_00:I haven't, I haven't, but um my my brother-in-law and my sister used to live in Milford, Connecticut.
SPEAKER_01:Okay, very close, yeah.
SPEAKER_00:And they're um his his brother owned a restaurant called Gusto's in Milford, and so that's really like one of the I used to go up there and um I'd take the train up there, and and that's really my connection to dining in Connecticut, unfortunately. The only one.
SPEAKER_01:We have a super good Italian food scene. So when I when I travel outside of Connecticut, I miss the Italian food here, but there's I don't find that there's tons of like I don't know, Middle Eastern or just like other flavors. So I enjoy that most when I travel. But um, okay, I'm curious though, because the restaurant world is a wild one. Um our listeners know that from some other guest stories, but what um what one has had the most impact or what process of opening the restaurant has been the most impactful for you, good or bad? Um I guess yeah, take that. Take that either like what project did you learn the most from? What one are you most proud of restaurant-wise?
SPEAKER_00:Um, well, you know, Chef and the Farmer, uh, in its original uh, I don't know, the original Chef and the Farmer was really like my first child. Uh and I kind of grew up there too. We were, I was only 27 when it opened. I had never run a kitchen before. Um, and you know, we opened this restaurant in a very unlikely, off-the-beaten path place, um, and really set out to prove ourselves like we would succeed. Um, so I would say, you know, there were so many learning experiences wrapped up in that. Uh and what I've learned through all of my experiences, from opening restaurants to writing books to making TV shows to writing columns to um redesigning, you know, my house or the church that I recently bought, is like I really love projects that have a beginning, a middle, and an end. Uh and that, you know, that's challenging for someone who runs restaurants because if there is a grind, a restaurant is a grind. And there is really, if you look for a beginning, middle, and an end, you have to look at it in every single day. Uh uh, so I I've like over the years, you know, I've been in the restaurant business like more than 20 years now, um, and have done a lot of things to make it so that I can look at all of my restaurants as projects that have a beginning, middle, and an end. Um, Theodosia, which we opened this summer, uh, literally does, you know, it's a seasonal restaurant. So we open in early May and close in late September. And what I like about that is you can really uh gear up and plan. Um, and you know there's gonna be this like thick of it period where you're just really pushing. Um, and then there's a wind down period, and then there's a reflection period where you can like look at what you you've done and identify the the positives, the negatives, the ways we can improve. Um, and when you're running a restaurant on a daily basis, and if you're lucky enough that it's busy, you never get the opportunity to do that, to like really stop as a team and evaluate what you're doing um and how to make it better. So I I have really enjoyed that with the adoja. And then in reopening Chef and the Farmer, um, I have been doing these kitchen bar dinners for the past two years that are just it's gonna sound crazy, um, but I've been doing it for two years. Uh, I just cook three nights a month. Um, and I cook for 20 people at a time. And I imagine that month for what it brings. You know, we're we're on October right now, and um, I have kitchen bar dinners next week, this week. And, you know, I've been planning the last two weeks what my menu's gonna be. I'm gonna start prepping tomorrow. I'll cook Friday and Saturday, and then I'll start planning for the next month. Um, and that's part of that's one part of Chef and the Farmer that makes the wheel go round. Um, obviously a restaurant cannot survive on three nights a month, but for me as the um, you know, the creative force there, I needed this type of exercise to keep myself um pushing and cooking and being creative. Um so yeah.
SPEAKER_01:I love all of that reflection. The first thing I was gonna say is you're so self-aware to know that you work in a rhythm where you need, you know, a beginning and an end. And I would say I'm probably similar um hearing you say it. I'm like, okay, I I definitely can track with that. But then also the three nights a week, what a what an incredible rhythm for a creative, you know, instead of just like grind, grind, grind, because then you fry. And it it is the saddest thing when a creative like loses joy in what they're most passionate about, you know. So you're creating this rhythm where you have that that margin, right? Yeah.
SPEAKER_00:Yes. And I I mean, I think for a long time, people, you know, when um a chef's life, my first show on PBS was like incredibly, you know, it was like in the thick of it. It was really popular. I was doing events, I wrote Deep Run Roots, which is a 600-page book. You know, every person that I met was like, just please don't burn out, please don't get burned out. And I'm like, I'm not gonna get burned out. But then as soon as things slowed down, like with the pandemic, I was like, I am burned out. And I'm not interested in cooking for myself or for my family or for anyone else. In fact, I don't even know that I'm a good cook. You know, like that's what burnout like feels like. And I really thought um that I would never cook again in my restaurants. I just didn't think that I had it in me because I always looked at it as um I had to do this seven days a week or at least be responsible for it seven days a week. I did not allow myself to say, what if I scale it back? And I offer um an uh an experience where guests get me and I cook for them. Because, you know, in the past, you know, people would come to Chef and the Farmer from all over the country after watching a chef's life, uh, and think that they were gonna see me in the kitchen toiling and cooking and serving and crying and uh cussing. And the, you know, the truth is, you know, after the show started, I I just I was a distraction in the dining room. Um and I got a book deal and I always wanted to be a writer. I got into cooking because I wanted to be a writer, so I took that opportunity to, you know, write the best book that I could. Um, but I had a lot of anxiety about people that were traveling from all over the country to come and see me that were never gonna see me. And so like lots of therapy later, I came up with a way to um help myself sleep at night and you know, shorten the window of time that I'm like creating and just really give it everything I've got and give the people that eat with me and dine with me like even more than they expect. Wow. So bigger more is not always more, you know.
SPEAKER_01:Have you ever written on this? Um like to other creatives or chefs.
SPEAKER_00:No, but I think that uh that's a really uh I'm glad you pointed that out. Um, because I I it's something that my peers don't really understand necessarily. Um I mean, I think they understand it, but I don't think it's been explained. And I think that would be a great thing for me to write about, honestly.
SPEAKER_01:Uh I think it's one, yeah, of course. No, I think culture gets so caught up in certain paces, right? And then I feel like there's a wave of creative burnout. Um, I feel like I'm just coming out of a season of my own creative burnout, but I'm just surrounded by creatives that are burnt out. And I was like, wow, what if what if we change the narrative? Um, and I think that you're modeling that beautifully.
SPEAKER_00:Well, I think the idea, like, you know, I came up in a world where like when you find success, you just get bigger. Like in my world, that would mean me having like 15, 20 restaurants. Um and I I tinkered with that, you know. I opened the restaurants in Charleston and I realized how hard it was to be um present and engaged and providing the experience that I I really felt like our guests deserved. And so I was like, oh no, okay, so I'm gonna have the restaurants in Charleston, and and that's really gonna be it because I don't feel good when um things are scaled so much that it's actually um it dilutes who you are and what you bring. And so I think rather than scaling really big, what success has allowed me is to narrow um my focus uh in some kind of strange way. Um and yeah.
SPEAKER_01:Well, if you ever wrote on that, I would be the biggest cheerleader of it. So please keep me posted.
SPEAKER_00:Well, thank you. Thank you. I'm trying to start a sub stack, so maybe that'll be my first piece.
SPEAKER_01:And it's one of those things. I mean, I could speak from experience. You don't know burnout um until you're in it sometimes, right? Like you, you don't know, it's hard to empathize with people, it's hard to yeah, know how to get out of it, like how to recover from it, all of those things until you're in it. And you speak from such experience, and I feel like it would be received really well. But of course, so you know, we've talked about a few different areas of your career. So TV, you're like a girl after my own heart. I love it. Multipassionate, but TV, writing, you're in the kitchen. Which lane of your career is most life-giving to you right now?
SPEAKER_00:Um, well, I think that uh, you know, I think this word is really overused, but I consider myself a storyteller. And um I do not think that I'm the best chef in the world, not the most technique-driven cook out there. Uh, but I think that I've found success in cooking by um having all of my dishes rooted in some sort of story. So that um always gives servers and bartenders and you know, your team like the means to root what they're cooking in for for a reason. Um, and I have always believed that like food with a story tastes better. Um and you know, my first cookbook, Deep Run Roots, was like really half narrative and then half recipes. Um, because as I said earlier, I always wanted to be a writer and never thought that that would be like in the cookbook genre. And so it was like, how can I like really uh enjoy writing a cookbook? And that's by making it more of a story. Um, and then you know, I think a chef's life, uh, Summer South, and and Kitchen Curious are all food TV that are story narrative driven. So I think that my um what I consider myself more than anything else is a storyteller, like that who uses multiple mediums.
SPEAKER_01:That's so consistent with what I've learned about you in this conversation that you love connection, like connection is a value of yours. So I love that you get to have that as a part of the the plot for the show. Um yeah, that's very sweet.
SPEAKER_00:Yeah, and I think that storytelling is also, I mean, obviously there's storytellers all over the country, but um storytelling is something that is I think particularly southern in some way. Um and my dad is a great storyteller, but it he shouldn't be because he uses very few words. But um I think that I get that from him in particular.
SPEAKER_01:Wow. How did um TV come from your career? So you started in the kitchen, and where did TV come? Were you pitching yourself or were you approached? What did that process look like?
SPEAKER_00:Um, no, so I I do In college, I got an internship at CBS Sunday morning, and I um spent the summer in New York um as an intern there. And then I uh moved to New York in hopes of working in journalism and ended up, you know, working in kitchens. I started out as a server, but then decided like, oh, this was like peak Anthony Bourdain time. And I was like, well, maybe I can turn my experience in the kitchen um as you know, into experience as a food writer. Um and can you tell me the question again? I'm sorry.
SPEAKER_01:Oh yeah, of course. I'm like, wait, what did I ask you? We're both um how did how did TV come up? Like, did you pitch or did they approach you?
SPEAKER_00:Okay, so yeah. So so then, you know, I um my I moved back home to eastern North Carolina to open Chef and the Farmer, and we were open maybe like two years, and I still had these like dreams of being a storyteller. Um and I started like exploring different things in my community, like people putting up tomatoes, making kraut out of collards, um, all of these dying food traditions um in eastern North Carolina that you know I knew no one was going to document. So I reached out to a childhood friend of mine who grew up uh just like six miles from me in Deep Run. And she was a documentary filmmaker. Um, she lived in Durham, North Carolina at the time. And I was like, hey, Cynthia, like I want to make this documentary about the dying food traditions of eastern North Carolina. Would you like to work on this with me? And so she and her um partner at the time um came down to Deep Run and we experimented uh around the subject of putting up corn during the summer. And we did this on like July 4th weekend. There was a uh parade in Deep Run, like it was a three-block parade that tells you how like small the town is. And and we filmed all of this, and and I never thought that I was actually gonna be on camera. Like I saw myself as a producer writer of this, but um Cynthia, the filmmaker, was like uh had me in front of the camera the whole time. And, you know, as part of this, like experimenting, my family and I put up corn, and you know, I didn't know what to do, so I just turned and talked to the camera, like and said what we were doing. And um, so she came to me uh a couple weeks later and said, you know, I know you want to make this documentary, but I think this is like far more interesting with you and your story, like in front of it. Um, and we can still incorporate those pieces. But so we started filming this, whatever we thought it was gonna be, and um made a sizzle reel and sent it to the Food Network and um HGTV and a number of other places, and they just like laughed at us. And then um we sent it to UNC TV, which is our the North Carolina's PBS station. They also laughed at us and said, you need to figure out what this is. Is this a documentary or a food show? It can't be both. Um and then we sent it to South Carolina ETV, which is a South Carolina PBS station. And um our contact there, Amy Shoemaker, said, uh, you know, I don't know what this is, but I think it's interesting. I'm gonna send it to National PBS. So several weeks later we got the word that National PBS thought it was cool, interesting. Um, and if we made 13 of them, then they would consider uh distributing it through the PBS channels. And so that's one of the things people don't realize about PBS um is that you like as a producer, as a um host, like we have to raise all the funds to make our shows. Like there's no government funding going into that. Yeah. So when you watch a show on PBS and you see like this is brought to you by that's all like fundraising that the team that's made the show has done. Um and so when national PBS said, Yeah, y'all can, we would love to see four 13 of these, I thought that we had won an Oscar or something. I did not realize at that point that we then had to raise all the money to make those shows. Um and uh turns out we were not really able to do that. So we put it on credit cards and um a big chunk of the team the first year like uh worked for free, uh, myself included. Um because we really just believed in it. We believed we were doing something different. We had like we had goals, we had mission. We had a mission. We wanted, we had something to say. Um and so we just really believed in it. And then that first season of a chef's life won a Peabody Award, which is like uh like the highest honor that you can you can get in uh broadcast or uh television. So that gave us the means to kind of really be able to fundraise moving forward. So no, no one came and found me, no one um invested in me. Uh yeah, no, um, this has been a straight up hustle. If you are heard, if you're heard from a rural place in the United States, like on a national level, uh, you have hustled your ass off to be there. Yeah, trust me.
SPEAKER_01:Well, I this is another episode, unfortunately, that I'm not on camera. I wish you could have seen me kind of just nodding and smiling and all of the things, but I think um so I personally am interested in TV in some capacity at some point in my career. It's always been um something I've been interested in. I I love storytelling as well. Um, different stories, different angles, but still love storytelling. Um, and I feel like it's not a career path that's talked about enough. So, like, for example, the PBS paying for it out of pocket, using credit cards, like working for like nobody talks about that side of it. And I think it's so important to know, like as a viewer, when you're um supporting a show, I think it allows the viewer to support the show hopefully more intentionally and more deliberately. Um, but then also people on that career path, like it's like, man, it's not just an overnight success, you know, multi-million dollar contract. It's it's a long game. So actually, when you were talking earlier about the restaurant business for you, how you like working on projects that are start to finish, um, TV is for me a long game, and that is hard. It's like a constant tension. It's like, wow, I super interested in this long term, but man, it is not immediate. So it makes it a little bit harder.
SPEAKER_00:Um, and so I hope someone listening uh that helps uh just well, you know, and you know, I know that you know, there's um when we announced Kitchen Curious, like the number one like question we got was like, How are you gonna be on PBS when PBS is no more? Wow. Um but I don't think that people understand really how PBS works. You know, there's a certain amount of government funding that goes to support the stations, and um, but it that does not support the programming on the stations. So, you know, PBS is a really interesting place if you want to be on TV, you have a mission, you have something to say, and like PBS, their their metrics for what they accept is like is this programming that will improve people's lives? That's like what they are looking for. And so, you know, if you can raise the money or um or encourage a team to work on something and make it, like I really believe that PBS is the best place for you. Um and I also really believe in PBS because it's the only platform, the only place where you're gonna watch something and not be sold something. You know, there are there are no advertiser interests, there are no like motivations uh beyond um the overall PBS metric, which is like is this programming that will improve people's lives?
SPEAKER_01:Wow. It sounds like the perfect platform for your content, you know?
SPEAKER_00:It just sounds like it turns out it's the only one.
SPEAKER_01:Well, isn't that how like life works? You know, I a huge part of our story. We lived in Thailand, our um college allowed us to travel almost anywhere in the world, our junior year. Every program was no for one reason or another, except Thailand, the last one on my list. And now that place is home and it drastically changed our lives. But it kind of the decision was kind of made for us, right? And so I'm learning sometimes. It's hard, man, it's painful in the moment, but it's purposeful, right?
SPEAKER_00:Yeah, no, and I've had opportunities with other networks and streamers, but what I've found is that PBS is really the only place that is gonna allow me to do what I want to do.
SPEAKER_01:Wow.
SPEAKER_00:And that's about without like all of the advertising interest and those things uh affecting it.
SPEAKER_01:So important. That's a I'm really glad listeners are hearing this this side of the industry. It's important, and I'm grateful that you have that. Yeah, I especially as a creative, creatives know it is so complicated when money and average like it, yeah, the layers can almost be able to do that.
SPEAKER_00:And also PBS is really the only place that um, you know, as a a producer, like, you know, I can make a show, it can air on PBS for literally years and years and years. Um, but I still own it. So, you know, if I were on Food Network or Netflix or uh Apple TV, they would own my intellectual property and also would probably get a a portion of it, um, that whatever like income it brings. So I can't really speak to that exactly, but uh there are a lot of benefits to be on being on PBS.
SPEAKER_01:Listen to me over here. I'm like, this sounds like another good book. Here's two books for you.
SPEAKER_00:Thank you.
SPEAKER_01:Another substack for your paid subscribers. Uh, okay. Well, we have said the name of the the upcoming show a few times, but I want to make sure listeners hear it loud and clear. Your upcoming project is called Kitchen Curious. Now I should know this right in front of me, but remind me of the launch date of the show.
SPEAKER_00:So um that's the thing that is challenging about PBS is that it airs all over the country whenever local programmers decide. Sure. But it launched in the first markets um last week, but they're like I think a majority of the country will start seeing it on the 23rd of October.
SPEAKER_01:Okay. Well, that's kind of fun. Multiple launch parties. That's what I would say. Well, everyone.
SPEAKER_00:Well, the fun thing is that people are discovering it at different times. So it doesn't feel like, you know, I mean, like I watch the White Lotus like like everybody else, but you know, it comes out, everybody experiences it, then it's gone. Um, and so things on PBS have a much longer life because uh it is very much community-oriented, and the programmers from every community decide like when it fits in their schedule. Like in some cases, Kitchen Curious is airing, like you know, in the nighttime, like lifestyle uh programming, but in many cases it's Saturday morning in a cooking block. Um, and you know, in this climate where everything is just like flash in a pan, I kind of appreciate like this slow rollout where things can really build.
SPEAKER_01:Yeah. Wow, I like that too. Very, very interesting. Well, tell us more about the concept behind the show because it's really unique and needed, I feel like.
SPEAKER_00:Yeah, so you know, we were talking about burnout before, and I I was not only burned out from cooking in a restaurant, I was burned out from wearing a mic and being on camera forever, is what it felt like. Um, and so I really kind of thought that I I don't know that I knew that I would be on TV again. I didn't really think that I had anything to say. But over the last five years, I've done what a lot of people have done, and I've been scrolling on social media, and everybody has an opinion about what you should eat, why you should eat it, like is are seed oils bad for you? Like ultra processed foods, like protein, like all of these things. Everybody's an expert, but they really aren't, you know. Um so I'm looking at this wondering like, I don't I can't make heads or tails of this, like, and if I can't, as a someone who's worked in food my whole life, basically my whole adult life, um, I know other people are really confused. So I that's like when I'm best, is like when I'm actually learning something. Um so I thought, you know, what if we tried to answer some of these questions that we have? So we have in Kitchen Couriers, there's an um episode on fats and how they are one of the most confusing subjects we have in the kitchen. You know, when I was a kid, margarine was the fat of choice in my mother's kitchen. I would know more by margarine than to cook with than lighter few than lighter fluid, you know. So then, you know, everyone was against all animal fats, like, you know, is bacon fat bad, like tallow is that bad. And now it's like seed oil. So it's like, you know, you don't know where to land. Um, and so in the fat episode, we do an episode on fats. So every episode has two cooking demos that um one of them's really short and one is a little bit longer. And then I go to the grocery store, like either Piggly Wiggly or Walmart with a nutritionist. Um, her name's Christine Byrne, and we go to on this episode, we go to the fat aisle where all of the olive oil and the bacon fat and the tallow and the canola and all of the vegetable oils are, and we talk about like what is good, what is bad, um, why people believe one is better than the other. Um, and then in every episode, we go on a field trip to further uh enhance the narrative. And in the fat episode, I go to uh Corto olive oil in Low Die, California, where they grow um more olives than anyone else in the United States. And they've really revolutionized the way that they process their olives into olive oil. Um, actually, they've revolutionized it for the whole world. So, you know, we take this subject that I as a chef, olive oil, I thought I knew and understood, but we go to the source and really learn like the ins and outs of it, how to shop for it, um, what it should smell like, what it should taste like. Um, and so what I really am excited about this show, like um juxtaposed with the work I've done before on TV, um, is that both Somewhere South and a Chef's Life were somewhat aspirational. You know, like I'm always going to the farmer's market or going straight to the farm. Um, but in Kitchen Curious, I really wanted to meet people where they're at, where I'm at, you know, I shop at Walmart, I shop at Piggly Wiggly. Um, and you know, I often like I go to the pasta aisle and I'm like, I really don't want whole grain pasta. I'd really rather have the good old pasta. Like it how important is it for me to have the whole grain versus the regular? And so I answer questions that I think we I don't. Our nutritionist answers questions that I think that we all have. Um and so that's why I decided to make this show.
SPEAKER_01:I love that you lead with um just that level of authenticity, because you know, we're talking about things right now just in culture, and culture is hungry for that authenticity. And TV could be such a scripted space, and I think people are getting tired, you know, tired of it. And so I could see this being incredibly, incredibly successful, especially with home. Like so much of what I'm trying to do is tackle hospitality and security. And it's like, man, the only way we're gonna do that is if we start taking off, you know, breaking down these walls, taking off these masks, and realizing what home the purpose of home actually is. Um, and so I love that you're doing that um because social media is a food is a touchy subject for a lot of us. The kitchen is, and um people are.
SPEAKER_00:Um, and so I I and I feel like you get a lot of good information from social media, but it's so disjointed. You know, whenever I'm scrolling, it's like I take something in that I think is interesting, and then it's just like gone with the scroll. And and I I I I don't think that's valuable for anyone.
SPEAKER_01:Wow. Wow, wow. Well, there is a question that I saw that you guys are going to answer on the show. And if you'd rather save it for viewers, you can let me know. But it was specifically about cast irons. Are you okay talking about cast irons for a second?
SPEAKER_00:Yeah, absolutely.
SPEAKER_01:So I was not raised in a household that used a cast iron pan, and I was given one for my wedding 10 years ago. The first time I used it, rusted, didn't know what to do, I threw it right away. I I learned later. Not I there were ways to fix it. Um, so I will be again totally honest. I've been married 10 years. I just got my first cast iron pan after that incident. So, what do I need to know about caring caring for it?
SPEAKER_00:Well, um, first of all, like you never need to throw away a cast iron skillet because it's always it's always fixable. Um I would say the number one thing is after you cook in a cast iron skillet, yes, you should wash it. Wash it with soap and water and a um a little scrubby. Um, but the most important thing is to make sure it is completely dry. And I think the best way to do that is to put it back on your stove for just like 30 seconds, turn on the heat, and that will completely um get out all the moisture. And then I would put whatever oil you have handy, like put it on a napkin or paper towel, or just put a little in the bottom and rub it around the pan. And then you don't have anything to worry about. If you were to find your rusted uh cast iron skillet that you gave away, um, there are a lot of ways to get it down to a beautiful black finish again. But I think unfortunately, um there's so much myth and folklore around like how to care with for cast iron skillets that we've made it much more complicated than it needs to be. Um the reason that they have persisted in our culture is because they are easy to use. You can take a cast iron skillet from the stove to the oven to the table. Um, it doesn't require going into the dishwasher. Often, like it's the easiest thing to clean. Um, and really you just need to make sure it's dry. That's the most important thing.
SPEAKER_01:Wow. I definitely have not done either of those things. I have it's a gift and a curse. I'm kind of like a just go for it person, but I'm not like the manual reader.
SPEAKER_00:Are you know like me neither, me neither. I've learned everything the hardest way.
SPEAKER_01:Um my husband will sit and read like cover to cover, and I'm like, you're wasting so much time. But he's very thorough. We're different strengths.
SPEAKER_00:That's yeah, that's how y'all present a good balance there.
SPEAKER_01:For sure. Wow. Well, um, okay, so where are we sending viewers to watch this? Their local PBS station, or what's the best way to find it?
SPEAKER_00:So what I would recommend is um you can go to kitchencurious.com and you can stream the show from there for free. Um like, you know, PBS has a lot of pluses. I would say one of the things that has working against it is like it's can be hard to find something in your you know local market. But um, if you go to kitchencurious TV.com, you will see like you can click on to find your local listings for the show. You can also click to just stream it straight from the website and for free. So that's like, why not?
SPEAKER_01:Yeah, that's incredible. That's great. Um, okay, so we will include uh that link in the show notes. Anything else about the show you want people to know before we head to um our final questions?
SPEAKER_00:Um well I'm glad we got to touch on the fact that PBS is still here and very important. Um but no, I think that we kind of covered everything. Um, you know, I I don't want to take away from what's learned on the show. Just know that um it's all really practical and also entertaining.
SPEAKER_01:That's good. The perfect perfect.
SPEAKER_00:Oh, and I will say this. Um in every episode, there are two cooking demos that, you know, add to the narrative. And I do those um in this church that I bought that is at the end of my driveway uh in Deep Run. I grew up across the road from the house that I live in now, and this church has always been there. It was the Methodist church. I didn't grow up going to it. I had never set foot in it until about three years ago. And the Methodists um they shut down the church because it only had two members about three years ago. And because it was in my yard, I was able to buy it. Um, and the church is like a hundred years old, but like in the 60s, they put um a kitchen in the back. And so I remodeled the kitchen um to do to make it a little TV studio, and so that's where the cooking demos are done in Kitchen Curious.
SPEAKER_01:Wow, wow, that's so I love that you have that space. Yeah, yeah.
SPEAKER_00:And if you if you watch it, you may see some like religious kind of uh um, I don't know, paraphernalia, but it it's it's because I've used all that in the church, yeah.
SPEAKER_01:Yeah, so much character that's incredible. Wow, that's so sweet. Well, we end each of our conversations with the same three questions, and I would love for guests to get to know you better through these as well. Um, the first one is something that you have eaten recently and loved.
SPEAKER_00:Well, so I I always enjoy things that other people make way more than um food that I eat, uh, for sure. I just want you to know that. Um and I live in a rural place, so I don't end up eating out a whole lot, but um, in making Kitchen Curious, uh, we went to Paris um because we do an episode on um how your freezer is the best preservative that you have. And the French, their favorite grocery store is called Picard, and everything in it is frozen. So uh we flew to Paris uh one day, shot the next day, and I was supposed to go home um the next morning, but I felt like Lord, I haven't been, I've only been to Paris once in my life, and like I don't want to leave. So I spent one day by myself um walking around Paris and eating. And I know this is the gather podcast, but I actually really enjoy eating by myself. Um because when I go out with other people because I'm a chef, like it's almost like I'm working. They make me order for the table and I worry about like what I'm ordering, is it gonna suit everybody's taste? And how is everybody else gonna enjoy this? So when I get to like really have a day where I decide what I'm gonna eat, that's like I really I enjoy that so much. Um, and so I can remember um in particular uh beef tartare in Paris at a sidewalk cafe. Um on both sides of me. I had like French families that were like so beautiful and cool and like just eating, you know, things that my kids would never eat. Um and like beef tartare is not like incredibly unique, but like this was beef tartare served with these very uh flat, crispy French fries. And I've like spooned the tartare onto the French fries, and it's like I've just I've never felt more French or more not French.
SPEAKER_01:I love that whole picture you painted. Paris has a special place in my heart. I in high school, I wanted to, my dream, my dream of all dreams was to work at the embassy in Paris. Um, and my life has taken a very different turn, but I still love it. I love the whole culture. Wow. Yeah, and yeah, you know, and you said like this is the gather podcast and all of that, which I could have pre, you know, of course I value gathering, but I think there there is a healthy rhythm of solitude that I'm learning and I haven't mastered it yet. But there it's important to have that time by yourself. So I could see the value in that. Yeah.
SPEAKER_00:Yeah. And like when you're a people pleaser in general, even if I just go out with another person, um it's really about like making the experience like something that's really comfortable for them. And um, so as you know, a a people pleaser, sometimes it's just nice to go out to dinner and do exactly what you want.
SPEAKER_01:Yeah. Well, it sounds like you need more solo trips to Paris.
SPEAKER_00:I'll take solo or I'll go with people too. There you go.
SPEAKER_01:Um, how about a gathering you attended that made you feel a strong sense of belonging?
SPEAKER_00:Um, you know, that's a hard question for me because I am a little bit of um an introvert uh who has a public persona. So I I do a number of things out in the world, but I'm generally the host or the speaker or the um Um or the chef. And um so I I really feel like the the time when I have been invited to something that has made me feel um uh welcome but surprised, uh, has been like opening restaurants in Charleston, South Carolina. Um, you know, I've always been a part of like the North Carolina restaurant community, which uh can be very competitive and um a little bit isolating, um, particularly where I am. I'm like, you know, way far from everyone else. And so um Charleston is probably the most competitive restaurant scene in the southeast. And so I had a lot of reservations about opening a space there. But um the restaurant community's reception of me has been just overwhelming and not fake. You know, like people invite me to um go to their house and hang out or um to come and cook with them in their restaurants, or when I go out to eat in their restaurants, like I'm just like flooded with food. And I just I've never felt so welcome as I have in the Charleston restaurant community. So it's not a gathering per se, but it's like um being welcomed into something where maybe I never expected I would be.
SPEAKER_01:I'm grateful you have that. Hmm. That's sweet. That's very, very good. Well, last but not least, um, something that you've discovered recently that you think everyone should know about a Netflix show, Amazon purchase, anything random, kitchen gadget.
SPEAKER_00:So I um I have recently started, you know, I've got through these phases in my life where I'm like super like I'll work out for a period of time. And then I just like don't do anything. I'm like super sedentary for like a year. So it's like year on, year off, year on, year off. And um I spend a lot of time sitting at my computer. Uh and I recently bought a under the uh desk walking mat um that I really I didn't know if I was really gonna like jive with it. Um but it has been such a a wonderful reprieve from, you know, like I don't have to, it's made me think about like I don't have to sweat to move. So yeah, you know, I I can stand up and um take my computer with me and read what it is I'm reading, um, type what it is I need to type or watch something I want to watch and like move slowly while I'm doing it. Um and so I would say this like walking um treadmill that goes under my desk is like my favorite thing that I've gotten in the last year, probably. Wow and it wasn't expensive either, you know. I um, you know, regular treadmills, I don't know how much they cost, but this was like$200 and like huge, huge difference in my work day.
SPEAKER_01:Wow, I would be open to trying it. I feel like I want to try one before I I go all in, but I could see the benefit of that, my goodness.
SPEAKER_00:Yeah, and it's just like if you work in an office, even if you just want to get up for five minutes and just walk a little bit, like I do a lot of phone call work, and it's a great thing to do when you're on a phone call. Um and yeah, I don't have the sweat to move.
SPEAKER_01:I um I know someone, my friend's husband, he stands on almost this like um balance skateboard when he works. Have you seen those?
SPEAKER_00:Yeah, what is it called?
SPEAKER_01:Is it a balance board? What is it? I don't know.
SPEAKER_00:It's like I don't know, maybe it is a balance board, but um I I learned about this walking pad from the um a pod uh the wire cutter podcast where they were talking about ways to be more active when you're working, and that like balance thing was one of the items they talked about. Um, I think I would have a harder time balancing on that and working than just walking.
SPEAKER_01:Me too. I'm like, it is not in anybody's best interest that I get on one of those.
SPEAKER_00:Yeah, me neither. It's like a hoverboard, like, no, thank you. Um they also recommended something that you um it's almost like a just the uh the pedals of a bicycle that you can put under your desk and it just like uh changes the you know, kit gets your blood flowing. Um, and you can actually sit while you do it.
SPEAKER_01:My little guy just came in the room. Can you say hi, buddy? Say hi. No, we're getting a little sleepy. Seven o'clock hits and it's mama time. Yes. Well, thank you so much for this. I, you know, honestly, there were a lot of takeaways from um just learning about the show. And like I said, I've always been interested in that side of my career and love that we share the values of hospitality. But I think your authenticity and humility shine through just in everything that you've talked about. It's so transparent that that's how you lead and just your value of connection. And um, I'm just so excited for you that PBS is where you landed and that's where the show is going to be aired. And um, I just hope for all the success as it continues to launch.
SPEAKER_00:Thank you very much. And and thank you for um highlighting something I should write about. I'll tag you when I do.
SPEAKER_01:Hey, I'll share it until everyone reads it.
SPEAKER_00:Thank you. Thank you very much.
SPEAKER_01:Well, guys, you know the drill. If you love this episode, be sure to um share it with those in your life and leave a review on the show. And most importantly, after listening today, head on over to KitchenCuriousTV.com. Is that right? The URL? Kitchen Curious TV. Yep.
SPEAKER_00:I think so.
SPEAKER_01:Yeah, okay. I'll tag it. I'll tag the right one in the show notes so you can click it directly there. Um, and uh watch the show for yourself. We will see you next week.
SPEAKER_00:Bye, thank you.